[imported_Kreole Ragehead]

Imo the people leaving are either leaving because of the lag issue some have had or the fact that uo is to old of a game for them. I really doubt that the players we´ve lost has quit/break because of pvp or rp, then again there will always be 1 or 2 of those aswell.

I myself come from the IN playstyle but i really have to say that after going to 2 tourneys(even if i never got to fight in either of them) i feel ive learned how the pvp is to be played, well most of it. I havent really pvped yet cause i need to train my inscription first but it really dont seem to be that hard, nor that boring. In fact not even that different then what im used to. The only thing i find hard is how would one survive against 2 flamestrikers with only 100 hp?

Great post from the beginning and i aswell think we should just finish up the pvp discussion here and now and move on just as Hate said.

[imported_Jimmar]

I have a feeling you haven't pvped that much here either if you think that all you need to fight is GM Magery..PvP is all about melee, armors, potions, magic, scrolls and most important of all - pvp strategies. Healing with bandages is also very very important in case you fight somebody who knows how to fight, because otherwise you'll end up without mana in no-time.

Since one of the staff posted I shall respond further..

Before discussing this I want us to agree on one thing.. this servers livelihood is derived from pvp..the majority of the people here pvp..yes? In fact pvp is mentioned 5 times in the "about In:x" on the homepage..

Onward to discussion..

Pot and scroll is all I honestly see in pvp..very little melee at all and only with the weapons mentioned. Again ganking is likely the cause which is acceptable considering thats the natural order of things but a 2v1 you wouldnt normally have a chance in hell.. however..

You could however make the FS cast delay a split second longer.. that way if someone fs's you assuming magic reflect is a shorter casting time then fs..you could react use that to your advantage and atleast have a chance against 2 people.. one worried about dying one that still on you.. and you would run out of mana faster this way which would lead you to resort to melee.

Even being able to fizzle spells by % chance with other spells would be nice if it would only be based on the persons magery.. 50% mage 5% chance to fizzle and gm mage 15-20% to fizzle that wouldnt be bad.. just an idea though..

How would you want it to be? Fencing and archery is good now as well. Archery has always had its down-side in armor combat since most arrows can not pierce the armor that great, plus you can't MOVE while shooting an arrow so you will have to stand still (making the spam a lil more useless), so that's why most people don't use it, not because it isn't good. In 2v2 I see lots of people use crossbows, cause 2 ppl shooting at one target at the same time with crossbows can be REAL nice. In naked I often see people use elven bows as well, they're real good there. Fencing can be real nice too. For example in box duels a bunch of good people use short spears. And in naked u can use a kryss and kick some asses with that, real good as well.

Not one person is using spears.. and if a bardiche does more damage then a war hammer and spear considering their speed that itself is far from balanced.. and where are people using heavy crossbows? A heavy of vanq is a scary weapon with gm archery..considering it even drops speaking of..

Where are these weapons you speak of.. if you cant use anything aside from the ones people are for pvp considering thats the reason most of us are here is pvp.

Do the ones your talking about even drop? Do we have any vanquishing weapons? I remember on IN1 for the brief month I played there were some very nasty weapons.. scary is a nice way of putting it..

You have to acknowledge the fact that not one person on the battlefield is sporting any other items then the ones mentioned..thats balanced? Explain this to me please.

You are right about that most people use bardiches for 1vs1 duels, but that's not because they can't use other weapons, but because they think the bardiche looks leet and hits the amount of damage they prefer for their strategy.

Leet? Just for looks eh?

Ive asked most of the reds and blues that do melee.. why do you use halberds and bardiche..? Best weapons for pvp.. or something rather is best damage weapons.

Balancing the pvp is nothing I work against though, feel free to shout out if u see some weapon hitting way too hard or way too soft, but the pvp in general is ment to be this way, and it is not the pvp itself that is flawed really, it is the players playing it without knowing what it is all about. I know this because I have seen players come to the shard and be like "ok this pvp sucks"

You have 2 old IN'ers.. that just posted about not caring much for the pvp style..I came fresh out of 51a and 55i sphere and I worked with most of the flint hills staff to get theirs smoothed over most of the time it worked out for the best..

This reply should clearify why I like the PvP the way it is

The way you may like it.

I pm'd you hopefully we can come to agreement maybe give things a try..more melee less spell spam?

-JimmAr

[imported_Dotjr]

I feel that Manson has made a lot of very good points. Players do not use other weapons because the best ones atm are Bardiche and elvens. Even then, I don't ever see weapons being used because frankly, why? Why use a bardiche that has a chance of hitting when you can cast FS from a scroll that will hit? DPS man DPS...

It is also true that all you need is mage, NOT even GM mage, but just mage and eval int. That's it...doesn't take skill to drink a pot.

Since we have a staff member posting in this type of thread, a suggestion. Test some of our ideas out. Test the whole fizzle when hit idea. At the moment for pvp, it's mage and eval int that are needed. If spells fizzle when hit then you will need the following. Mage, Eval int, tactics, (a combat skill), healing. No longer will people PK naked. Since melee will be involved, armor will be required along with a decent weapon. This would also have people go out more to find weapons because of the weapons DPS. Even though a bardiche hits hard, it's slow. Now another weapon might hit fast, but do less damage, but now that you are requiring to use mellee a player might no longer care. The bardiche hits hard and a player at the moment is hoping it hits their opponent hard enough so they can use a scroll. But that's it, if the hit fails, more then likely the weapon will not be used again, but instead the player will result in FS dumping.

[imported_Tabion]

Imo the people leaving are either leaving because of the lag issue some have had or the fact that uo is to old of a game for them. I really doubt that the players we´ve lost has quit/break because of pvp or rp, then again there will always be 1 or 2 of those aswell.

Just for the record, I have 3 friends in rl who refuse to come back here, 2 family members, and roughly 10 friends online who all quit. None of which had to do with lag.

I cannot be the only one who knows of people that were expecting this to be somewhat like IN and left because it wasn't.

Me personally, I am taking a break in hopes that things will turn for the better down the road. Hopefully some more skills and other spells will be useful in the future. It just sickens me to see a pvp system that is considered "godly" and being about fooling others not include so many other possibilities and strategies. Even if I was the best pvper on the shard I would get so bored of it very quickly.

Meanwhile, I will just scan through the forums once in awhile and give an outside opinion.


P.S. pvp will not change people, remember that. Save your words and prevent future frustration. Even if the shard 100% agrees that something would make pvp better, too bad.

[imported_Dotjr]

P.S. pvp will not change people, remember that. Save your words and prevent future frustration. Even if the shard 100% agrees that something would make pvp better, too bad.

Then we all might as well start writing our goodbye posts now...

[imported_Jimmar]

Then we all might as well start writing our goodbye posts now...

Lets see if Hate will try this.. maybe we can even get him to change his name to .. "Love" lol...

[imported_Sorick]

[SIZE="7"]SNEEEEAAAK AAATTTACK!!!![/SIZE]

[imported_Hate]

Before discussing this I want us to agree on one thing.. this servers livelihood is derived from pvp..the majority of the people here pvp..yes? In fact pvp is mentioned 5 times in the "about In:x" on the homepage..

That's true, PvP is a big part of this shard, and I'm not going to say that it isn't. What I am trying to say is however that this PvP is actually way more complex than most of you believe. I may have come off wrong with the "PvP won't change" sentence, what I actually ment was "PvP will not change in a drastic way, since it is pretty much the XUO legacy. But we WILL try to balance it and make everybody happy, because we all want that. We do however hope that most of you will try it out just a little bit more before you start trying to change it, because it is seriously way better than most of you think. I will try to explain further why this PvP is good, but also listen to your suggestions and try to explain why we can or why we can't add these things..

You could however make the FS cast delay a split second longer.. that way if someone fs's you assuming magic reflect is a shorter casting time then fs..you could react use that to your advantage and atleast have a chance against 2 people.. one worried about dying one that still on you.. and you would run out of mana faster this way which would lead you to resort to melee.

If we would make the FS scroll a split second slower it would cause this to happen:

1. People who use .wop spam would still be able to cast the FS before you can react and cast your reflect, because you won't know the FS is coming. You will however always be able to cast a reflect scroll as soon as the first FS hits (and knowing that your reflect will prevent u from dieing from another FS, because the reflect WILL always be faster, unless the guy casting it lags).

2. If for some reason spam cannot hide it, or if the person duelling is not using a spam, then the other guy will almost always be able to hit the reflect scroll and reflect back any FS coming at them, making FS close to useless. Players would start using energy bolt scrolls instead to try and kill people with a spell that is faster than an magic reflect, because flamestrike would be too slow. Heal would be so much faster than flamestrike so it would feel real pointless to use FS at all, and if we for some reason would also "slow down healing" then reflection would still ruin it the way I mentioned above.. =/ Not to mention that energy bolt scrolls vs armors would be real crappy as well due to that Ebolt is only good vs naked, so that would make pvp real slow and real boring, trust me.

Even being able to fizzle spells by % chance with other spells would be nice if it would only be based on the persons magery.. 50% mage 5% chance to fizzle and gm mage 15-20% to fizzle that wouldnt be bad.. just an idea though..

Why we do not have big chances of spells to fizzle at GM Magery is because we want to make our PvP about "being good" instead of "being lucky". We don't want somebody to die because he fizzled a heal, or survive because the other guys FS fizzled, we want him to win because he did a smart attack move, or die because the other guy was simply better than him. It may be "good" in ganking, but there's other ways to survive ganking without having to have spells fizzling on u, I'll explain that further below.

Hates mini-guide to survive ganking:
1. Always keep an magic reflection on you before you enter any zone in which you could be getting ganked.

2. If you are getting attack by two people, then they will most likely harm you before they try to flamestrike - to remove your magic reflection. When this happens SPAM and cast another magic reflection, because after their harm they will most likely flamestrike you, and when that happens one of their flamestrikes will reflect back at them. If this happens then just either flamestrike the guy that got your FS in his ass, or just run and heal, because the guy who got down to 50% hp will most likely start healing instead of flamestriking again, and if he does in fact continue to flamestrike then just make sure u are above 46+46 hp, and if u are then u know you'll survive two more flamestrikes. If u for some reason does not manage to get above that HP by the time two flamestrikes comes at you, just hit an greater heal potion to get above it, and then greater heal scroll and run behind some corner, then heal with a normal greater heal again, or recall away, or just heal up and magic reflect yourself again and then get ready to fight back. But seriously, battles in 1vs2 is not ment to be won by the alone guy, if all of you have GM magery. But you are supposed to survive if you know how to do it, what I mentioned above is one way to do it. You MAY even kill one of the two if u are good and they suck, or if they mess up and you don't, but it's not an "outcome" that is "normal" vs two good gankers, so don't expect that, except to give them a hard chance, find a friend, and go kick their ass together. Sorry for the long ass explanation, hopefully u got an idea of how to survive 1v2 now though :]

Not one person is using spears.. and if a bardiche does more damage then a war hammer and spear considering their speed that itself is far from balanced.. and where are people using heavy crossbows? A heavy of vanq is a scary weapon with gm archery..considering it even drops speaking of..

Where are these weapons you speak of.. if you cant use anything aside from the ones people are for pvp considering thats the reason most of us are here is pvp.

Do the ones your talking about even drop? Do we have any vanquishing weapons? I remember on IN1 for the brief month I played there were some very nasty weapons.. scary is a nice way of putting it..

You have to acknowledge the fact that not one person on the battlefield is sporting any other items then the ones mentioned..thats balanced? Explain this to me please.

Ok here we go. People are not using warhammers because they like the damage that bardiches makes, and the speed it has. Bardiches are good because it usually hits at an medium amount of damage and at a pretty good speed, so the chance of getting somebody below 46hp with it (without being hit too hard yourself) is pretty big. The other weapons are also balanced tho, it is just that they may either hit too slow but real hard, or real fast but too low damage. So bottomline of that is - people use bardiches because they like the damage it makes, and the speed it has, there for it is considered "the best weapon" by most people who knows how to PvP. But some people who likes to make real hard damage sometimes, but whom is not requiring to hit as often, prefer to use halberds because they hit real slow but they hit REAL HARD which is very good if u are the type of fighter that likes to get huge hits, but not as often. (and who does not mind being hit a lot before u get that great hit). People whom likes to use shields usually uses warforks instead of "bardiches", and hammerpicks instead of halberds. There's plenty of different setups, but there is almost always at all types of shards one weapon that is considered "better" than another one. For example a long sword / katana here at IN-X is probably considered to be "less good" because they are "OK" at everything but not "GREAT" at anything.

We do have vanquishing weapons. You can get all types of vanquishing weapons if you find the proper monster to kill for them. Get some vanquishing weapons, try to them, watch and learn that they aren't bad at all. I can personally log on to my GM, create some vanquishing weapons, and hit u (when I have GM props off and normal strength and dex), so u can see that the others aren't bad either, if u'd like that.

Leet? Just for looks eh?

Ive asked most of the reds and blues that do melee.. why do you use halberds and bardiche..? Best weapons for pvp.. or something rather is best damage weapons.

Well not just for looks. The reason "I" use it may pretty much be because they look leet and because they hit decent amount of damage at a good speed (as I mentioned above), but not because they are "overpowered". Weapons have been overpowered in the past, at XUO, but we have balanced them there, and that is why I can say now (unless somebody has modified our balancing we made at XUO) that our weapons at IN-X should be pretty balanced. However like I stated in my last post - feel free to complain about any weapon u find that hits too bad or too hard, and we will re-try them and see if they are imbalanced, because we do NOT want that either, it is just that we believe it is balanced as it is.

... This will continue in my next post since it got too long, sorry for making this reply so long..

[imported_Hate]

You have 2 old IN'ers.. that just posted about not caring much for the pvp style..I came fresh out of 51a and 55i sphere and I worked with most of the flint hills staff to get theirs smoothed over most of the time it worked out for the best..

The way you may like it.

I do appreciate all the help you try to offer. I _want_ you and everybody else who pvps at our shard (after trying it out for a while) to tell us what they do not believe is balanced. And if you find something - and we test it - and it is not balanced, then we will fix it. What I am refering to now is however the weapon damage and the armors though, not the pvp style in general, that is already very balanced, it just takes a little time to get used to. Of course we will listen to the pvp style questions as well, but things like "add fizzling on hit" or "make some armors resist magic spells better" will imbalance the whole pvp system that we have built up, and that is why we try to explain in an nice way why that can not be changed. We also try to encourage you all to try our the PvP a lot before trying to change it, because we have seriously played it for more than 8 years and we would not like it so much if it was messed up, imbalanced, or sucked so badly. It is just hard to get used to for somebody who is used to something very different since before I suppose. =/

I pm'd you hopefully we can come to agreement maybe give things a try..more melee less spell spam?

I will listen to your suggestions, but I will also let you observe a duel between two of our best fighters, only to show you that when people who KNOWS this PvP fights the fight is so much more than just spells. It is probably 50-50 with spells and weapon damage in such a fight, and that is what you want the pvp to be like - isn't it?

Ok anyways, we are all working towards the same goal here - to make everybody love the PvP. I want them to love it - you want them to love it - everybody wants to love it! - yes? So the idea of changing my name to GM Love may not be such a bad idea, love is after all a good thing, but for now I'll stick to this one

Keep giving suggestions as in what weapons that are imbalanced tho. And keep telling us ideas of how to improve the PvP even further if you have any ideas. But my biggest wish is for you to do three things before you do this..

1. PvP vs somebody who knows the PvP and let him teach you how it works, see if that changes your mind regarding the PvP.

2. Try out the weapons. See if they really are that imbalanced.

3. Watch two real good players fight and watch if the PvP is still too much about magic and not enough about melee.

After you've done these things (and this goes for all you players wanting to change the PvP) feel free to give me suggestions, because then you will have good reasons and understanding of the PvP, when trying to change it, and then it will be sooo much easier to discuss regarding how we can make it BETTER, instead of changing it to something that will just ruin the whole XUO feeling =/

Thanks for listening to my post, hopefully it has helped you understand what I mean at least a bit more..

Regards,
Hate

[imported_Smurtle]

Melee is crucial in 1v1. Ganking not so much because generally you have multiple people flame striking.

Our golden rule is we used to just all flamestrike. All five of us. We took the reflect of the first, but with a well-timed, four flame strikes at once, chances are they're not going to live.

I do somewhat like the idea Dot presented with being hit you fizzle.

[imported_n0x*]

Seer Hate and I have both been exposed to this pvp/ very similar styles for over 7 years and I can honestly say that Hate has covered all the counter details of your arguments and more; sufficient enough to cover most aspects of our PvP.. Some details were not gone into because we cannot tell you to hit your bandage at this hp and this might happen or reflect at this hp and that might happen or drink a gh potion, reflect and attack with spell and that might happen... There are SO many possibilities in a PvP battle whether it be 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 1.2, 2v5, etc. but none of you seem to have the patience to learn and discover those possibilities/ tactics because you are so absorbed into hating the pvp that you've convinced urselves and others how bad you think it is when in reality it is extremely diverse and complex and there is plenty of variety. If you really want some insight on some of that variety I wrote a PvP guide specifically for players not so familiar and even added some extra tips from other advanced pvpers. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT BEFORE YOU ARGUE. This guide includes an insight on most weapons, scrolls and spells (timers, uses, etc), basic tips on how to apply tactics and more.

Hate has a PvP school and him and i are planning on holding one very soon. Please cooperate and give it a chance... Try to learn it, give it some time, and I assure you once you get accustomed then you will enjoy it. I can honestly say that after 8 years of this PvP i've yet to get bored of it because it is so complex if you really want it to be.

[imported_Dotjr]

I do somewhat like the idea Dot presented with being hit you fizzle.

Thanks, oh well, with Hate's post, it sort of squashes my idea. Hate, thanks for explaining it a bit better then what some other people have done. I still do not like the play style though (I have watched fights, I go to the tourney's to observe, I watch the brit/minoc fights) I still feel that PvP is 98-100% mage.