[Habibi Jones]

well i believe i have a pretty good idea for balancing weapons in multiple aspects. there are so many different spots that we've been talking about this that i think it's time for me to make a poll. i'd like to get a consensus of how other players and staff feel about this idea.

problems regarding weapon performace in general:

-the average damage of weapons is not in question here. what is in question is the RANGE of damage. weapons can hit for 1 hp, or they can crit HARD. this goes for any weapon. you can crit for 40 with a kryss. you can crit for ~85 with a a hally and ~80 with a bardiche. you can crit 60's easily with a hammer pick. yet, you can also hit for 1 hp. increase of minimum weapon damage and decrease of maximum won't change the average damage of any weapon, but it will make weapons quite a bit more reliable and it will seriously make them a lot more useful in all situations. the humongous crits are entertaining, but it shouldn't be this way IMHO. the chance to get a null hit should be your chance to miss, every hit should at least do some measurable damage, and there should be a chance to get a reasonable crit. this actually brings me to another problem which i will get to later.[+]

-in autosupply tournaments, i think supplying +25 tactics vanqs does more harm than good. the duels would be much better with normal vanq weapons and a slight tweak to weapon damage range. a bit off topic but a better solution to the referee would be to have armor removed after x time (pretty common i've seen, i think gang supports this idea and i do also) or even set a durability on the armor in autosupply so that it breaks.

problems regarding weapon value and availability

-the server is flooded with loot table weapons. people have tens of thousands of them (i bet) yet there is almost no circulation. LOOT TABLE WEAPONS SHOULD BE RARE/VALUED/EXPENSIVE. having tactics bonus, which increases hit rating here, is a HUGE advantage in a fight. although it doesn't matter because everyone always carries +10 +15 +20 power, which makes the ones without a tactics bonus incomparable and out of the question in a 'serious' duel or even while ganking... this is because the drop rate is much too high, although, with the only craftable weapons being either really high cost or underpowered (sometimes both), it's necessary to have a means of supplying weapons to the community and therefore the high drop rate of magic weapons is indeed needed; right now. this brings me to the whole point of this post:

in my opinion, there needs to be a way to easily craft usable weapons that aren't resource heavy. what also needs to happen in my opinion is a complete wipe of all magic loot table weapons, as well as a significant reduction in their drop rate. the reason i say this is because the + tactics you get from them is taken for granted way too much because of how easy they are to get.
[+] neglecting non + tactics weapons can actually hide and mute certain aspects of the core PvP and cause us PROBLEMS while trying to create a beautiful balance [+].
having + tactics should be a privilege not a right, so to speak.

so, say tomorrow all loot table weapons are wiped, and the drop rate drastically reduced. this makes weapons super unbelievably valued/expensive/rare right? this pisses some players off, right? this breaks balance, right?
ok now think about this same scenario, only the following system had been added a week or two before the wipe/drope rate change:

-shadow iron weapons are craftable from ingots (same ingot cost as iron weapons*), they are ruin with no accuracy
-gold weapons are craftable*, they are might with no accuracy
-blood rock weapons are craftable*, they are force with no accuracy
-mytheril weapons are craftable*, they are power with no accuracy
-black rock weapons are craftable*, they are vanquishing with no accuracy

i hope these ideas seem as logical to others as they do to me. these changes would be a big boom for the economy, shard structure, as well as create much more enjoyable PvP; in my opinion of course. please vote but more importantly respond with your opinion of this idea, and other ideas that you have to reach the same goal.

[Venos]

Perhaps exceptional crafted weapons could have +5 tactics? Just an idea.

[Raziel_]

I agree with you habibi, also with venos!
there should be a difference between exceptional and regular weapons but the durability!!
Also every shard turns around economy! If owners/admins keep in mind the economy, which taran does, balanced with the pvp enjoyability the shard will grow massively and i think your ideas are awesome to both way!
Good point there habibi!

[Azzo]

Just some numbers for you regarding supply of these weapons.

I am in the latter stages of mining enough ingots to GM blacksmith and then tinkering, and I'm definitely not alone in this. I have 1.5k blackrock ingots at the moment, probably 2k by the middle of next week. Weapon ingot costs run from 8 for a kryss to 20 for a halberd. So I could make off the bat, 75 vanquishing halberds with no accuracy. I don't know if these are the numbers you were expecting, or if you should adjust the idea to match these kind of numbers. Personally I think that those numbers would trivialise what you're trying to achieve here with the item wipe of magical weapons, so maybe upping ingot costs, or bringing in other ingredients, or something else entirely might be needed to be brought in.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in support of the idea in principle, I just don't know about execution yet.

[Raziel_]

Just some numbers for you regarding supply of these weapons.

I am in the latter stages of mining enough ingots to GM blacksmith and then tinkering, and I'm definitely not alone in this. I have 1.5k blackrock ingots at the moment, probably 2k by the middle of next week. Weapon ingot costs run from 8 for a kryss to 20 for a halberd. So I could make off the bat, 75 vanquishing halberds with no accuracy. I don't know if these are the numbers you were expecting, or if you should adjust the idea to match these kind of numbers. Personally I think that those numbers would trivialise what you're trying to achieve here with the item wipe of magical weapons, so maybe upping ingot costs, or bringing in other ingredients, or something else entirely might be needed to be brought in.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in support of the idea in principle, I just don't know about execution yet.

I get your point azzo, but think about that table he put there as a suggestion, not a must be.. only a north to something better.. every idea is flawed and has to be worked and tested to see how it turns out ;D

[BenSa]

I hope we can start mele Monster as well, cos right now we need to use Provo and EV , and just watch while those mobs fight, I want blood in the line not stand and watch . There need to be powerful armo for hunting and weapons that do Overdose Damage as hell. But those weapons will be rare.

[Azzo]

I get your point azzo, but think about that table he put there as a suggestion, not a must be.. only a north to something better.. every idea is flawed and has to be worked and tested to see how it turns out ;D

Oh don't worry, I get that. I guess it wasn't completely clear what I was saying. I wasn't disagreeing with the idea, just providing numbers so we can turn the idea from that, an idea, into something more real and start balancing it.

[Eru]

What about lowering the number of weapons that spawn, plus I could remove the weapons from the Hunter/Slayer events. Then, as weapons wear out and are sold/trashed, there's more need for smiths and weapon prices rise again. I think a lot of people would object to us wiping the weapons, or any items, really. Maybe if it was only non-custom and non-vanq weapons that got wiped and if they were replaced with silver in the owners' banks somehow. That would need to be scripted, but having a way to delete an item and return silver for it through commands would be nice.

[Habibi Jones]

Just some numbers for you regarding supply of these weapons.

I am in the latter stages of mining enough ingots to GM blacksmith and then tinkering, and I'm definitely not alone in this. I have 1.5k blackrock ingots at the moment, probably 2k by the middle of next week. Weapon ingot costs run from 8 for a kryss to 20 for a halberd. So I could make off the bat, 75 vanquishing halberds with no accuracy. I don't know if these are the numbers you were expecting, or if you should adjust the idea to match these kind of numbers. Personally I think that those numbers would trivialise what you're trying to achieve here with the item wipe of magical weapons, so maybe upping ingot costs, or bringing in other ingredients, or something else entirely might be needed to be brought in.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in support of the idea in principle, I just don't know about execution yet.

Yeah I definitely overlooked that, if the weapons were made with the same amount of ingots as iron then they would be much too plentiful. Possibly make them cost some multiple of whatever it takes to make them in iron? like 5x the ingots or something?

What about lowering the number of weapons that spawn, plus I could remove the weapons from the Hunter/Slayer events. Then, as weapons wear out and are sold/trashed, there's more need for smiths and weapon prices rise again. I think a lot of people would object to us wiping the weapons, or any items, really. Maybe if it was only non-custom and non-vanq weapons that got wiped and if they were replaced with silver in the owners' banks somehow. That would need to be scripted, but having a way to delete an item and return silver for it through commands would be nice.

Yeah if it was a non-customized and non-vanq loot table weapon wipe then I think people would be much less opposed to this idea. The wipe/silver return is a very good idea, I like it.

[Carding]

No, this is what killed IN1

Sounds like a good idea, but it isn't

edit: Ignoring the crafting of ruin/might/force/power which Taran said he's already scripting/scripted

edit: Was in a rush but have a moment to elabourate:

What you think you want is more diversity and value to loot in PvP, but you will end up pricing out new players from PvP as weapon prices go up and so does armour pricing because ingots are used for weaponry instead. Effectively this means older and richers players and players who die less and risk better gear start to dominate completely.

Trust me, theorycraft is not required, this is exactly how it played out on IN1, I know, SIN squeezed the life out of the PvP system because no one could match our gear economy and it was too expensive for a new PvPer to stand a chance, and it wasn't fun for anyone, the new people who felt unfairly disadvantaged or the established PvPers who had less and less opposition to face and were subject to greater amounts of nonsense like naked FS scrolling rather than real PvP.

IN1's PvP system thrived when invul and vanq drops were numerous and the mining yields were generous and smiths concentrated on mass producing armour. Besides, a lot of players play only for PvP and if you make getting the gear for PvP a pain they will just give up.

[Habibi Jones]

No, this is what killed IN1

Sounds like a good idea, but it isn't

edit: Ignoring the crafting of ruin/might/force/power which Taran said he's already scripting/scripted

edit: Was in a rush but have a moment to elabourate:

What you think you want is more diversity and value to loot in PvP, but you will end up pricing out new players from PvP as weapon prices go up and so does armour pricing because ingots are used for weaponry instead. Effectively this means older and richers players and players who die less and risk better gear start to dominate completely.

Trust me, theorycraft is not required, this is exactly how it played out on IN1, I know, SIN squeezed the life out of the PvP system because no one could match our gear economy and it was too expensive for a new PvPer to stand a chance, and it wasn't fun for anyone, the new people who felt unfairly disadvantaged or the established PvPers who had less and less opposition to face and were subject to greater amounts of nonsense like naked FS scrolling rather than real PvP.

IN1's PvP system thrived when invul and vanq drops were numerous and the mining yields were generous and smiths concentrated on mass producing armour. Besides, a lot of players play only for PvP and if you make getting the gear for PvP a pain they will just give up.

Erm, I really don't get your point... How would getting gear for PvP be a pain? If weapons were craftable it would actually be easier to get them if the values were worked out correctly... It would however be harder to get +tactics weapons, which is how it needs to be. From what I heard, IN1 died because of high end weapons, no? I don't get why you think that this would break the PvP or cause some players to have a huge advantage over others, because it wouldn't. If anything, it puts everyone ont he same page...

[Gang]

support, not sure on the ores of which you make the weapons tho, but the idea itself is good, the tactic bonus that Veno suggested for item being exceptional is good as well.

What I always liked about the XUO is that we had Random Accurate Gems at there and that was the only way to get weapons with accuracy bonus. And only mob that dropped Random Accurate Gem of Vanquishing was Xtreme Wyrm. I knew only of 3 spawns in the world and it was taking a lot time to kill one.
Regular vanq weps were fairly easy to find, there were mobs such as Xtreme Dragons and Elementals that dropped only vanqs, not that they always would drop a weapon, but if they would , it could be only of vanquishing. The regular vanq bards would go for 100k, while I never heard of someone really trading +25 Vanq Bard. Something like that would go for crazy amounts of gold, I remember elleb was selling one for 25mills. And I for one never attained anything better than +5 vanq. Bardiche of vanquishing with any accuracy bonus was XTREMELY rare and very expensive to buy, if anyone would ever sell it.


Thats being said, the gold ofcourse was easier to get and hunting system of IN definitely is much more challanging and interesting that it was on XUO. But if we'd have only few mobs to drop Random Accurate Gem of Vanquishing, we'd soon see that accurate vanqs are indeed worth alot. I also loved Valorite bardiches, those used to hit like power bards. Would be cool to make some of useless ores useful.