12-18-2007, 08:19 PM
Hey, everyone. I've been reading through the forums for a bit now, and I feel it's about time I contribute something to the discussions. I just wanted to pose some general thoughts and see what you all feel about it. Please read everything as I tend to be very selective in my wording, even though this is a little haphazard compared to my usual argument building. I've been studying a lot for exams and I'm really out of it. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Anyway, I want to see the shard evolve and do well and I really want constructive criticism both of my observations and to come as a result from them.
I figure that one of the defining features of RP style play versus PvP style play is the following:
RP style play is centered around creating a realm of believability (Barring the fact that this is a fantasy based game, of course :p). The most important facet of believability, and the one most important to RPers, is the idea of scarcity. It is important that there be an enormous variety of possibilities and resources, but a very scarce distribution of them so that decision making becomes very important and a tactic in and of itself. It is important for a maintainable and meaningful economy as the very purpose of economics is in fact to manage scarce resources. This is why obtaining gold and items is made difficult, and, by extension, ability to earn it through crafting and/or hunting. This scarcity creates value. For RP leaning people, this extends to PvP as well. They want decision making to be an important choice in character creation and PvP tactics. For the RPer, building the character is a sign of skill just as much as how you use the skills you chose. They want to be able to use CONCEIVABLY ANY skill, weapon, etc to good effect and want to be able to see that possibility for variety put to use. This, coupled with scarcity, also creates a sort of Rock, Paper, Scissors sort of element to PvP as well, where one arrangement of skills tends to have an inherent advantage over another set. Sort of like how elements work in many popular RPGs where fire does double damage to water types. Using fire doesn't guarantee a win against a water type, but it ups the odds. RPers generally try to balance their PvP in such a way that the AVERAGE of a person's wins across a variety of different people comes out to be a true indication of a person's abilities. Anyone should be able to win on occasion, even if they suck on the overall. The fact that the person USUALLY wins is what's important, not that they ALWAYS win because they are more skilled. This is why a limited level of randomness tends to be important to RP style preferences. It also creates for this person a spark of danger and uncertainty because two people who are, in general, equally or closely matched could have the battle swing either way and people who are obviously better still have a thrill from the possibility of losing to anyone. No free lunches, so to speak, by picking on the weaker (although it certainly would be a MUCH EASIER lunch). This is all important to the RPer because it also reflects life a little more closely. Dumb luck happens on occasions and is embraced, not feared. It adds, by nature, to the thrill of battle.
For the typical PvPer, the idea of resource management is viewed as just a menial task, a necessary evil for obtaining what they need to do battle. PvPers want fast action with as little tedium as possible. They want to get in, do their thing, get out, and then do it again to their heart's desire. They don't want scarce resources, they want everyone to have anything and everything so that all other factors except for the ability to use the skills are factored out. They consider this to be the means of showing "true skills." If they are super skilled, they expect that they should win against their rivals, leaving no doubts about whether it is because they got lucky or whatever. The value in the game comes from being able to gloat that they won and to recieve recognition for it. This is why they don't like randomness or "Rock, Paper, Scissors" type effects as I called them. It casts a shadow of doubt to their skills and takes away from their glory. Scarcity, too, is just another venue for your quelled foes to cast doubt on your skills by claiming that you only won cause you have better items or more scrolls or whatever. To a PvP style player, a person who doesn't wear the best armor or equip scrolls is just less skilled because they can't use scarcity as an excuse.
This is just a very quick and lightly thought out series of observations. Also bear in mind that I tried to write it with very broad generalities made about PvP versus RP style players. I figure the best way to analyze something is to use "Ideal generalities" in much the same way that people use them in physics to describe a less than ideal reality.
In conclusion, I see this as ultimately the core problem in at least some of the arguments between IN and XUO players. The problem is a much more fundamental one than just that. Not to make excuses for the INers, but this is why INers seem to me particularly jilted with the PvP as they see it. As many of them have said, it is fundamentally different from what they enjoy on various levels. It also explains why some XUO players get bored with some of the tedium. The ideals are inherently negations of each other. The one unyielding fact is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for either of these schools of thought to get exactly what they want if we want to work together. Ultimately, both sides are exactly right. This can have very disheartening implications, depending on how we want things to work out on this shard. Compromise has to happen in more ways than simply saying "INers get the world and XUOers get the PvP." Neither world nor PvP can remain as they are. Because both sides are exactly right, there really is no reason for either side to feel like they have to compromise. In a sense, they are both perfectly justified. And because they are perfectly justified, it is inevitable that some people will leave if the necessary compromises are made. Because they have no reason, aside from the well being of the shard, to feel that they should have to compromise. We have some work ahead of us, no doubt about that. But these are only growing pains. The vestments of quick change that we weren't quite prepared to deal with. The shard has great potential, I seriously believe that. But both sides have to concentrate less on the idea that they are right, (Because both sides are and this line of thought will lead us nowhere) and more on how we can draw on each other's experiences to come into a cohesive vision. We also have to forfeit our fears of change. We need to actively experiment. Keep track and keep regular intervals of backup scripts so that we can reasonably easily undo any experiments that go awry. We need not only to experiment, but to do so actively and aggressively, especially at these beginning stages, because this is the time to do it. The more quickly and aggressively these growth spurts happen, the more painful they will be, but if we bear through them it'll be over reasonably quickly as well. Bear also into mind that it's a continuing process. No system is ever meant to stay the same, no matter how perfected a point it gets to. Necessity won't allow it.
I actually have some constructive ideas for change, but I'll wait till some people comment on this before I include them, since there will no doubt be things I have overlooked or misinterpreted. In any case, it's a pleasure to be a part of this community, even in this time of change and growing pains. I have high hopes. All the best.
~Valrael
I figure that one of the defining features of RP style play versus PvP style play is the following:
RP style play is centered around creating a realm of believability (Barring the fact that this is a fantasy based game, of course :p). The most important facet of believability, and the one most important to RPers, is the idea of scarcity. It is important that there be an enormous variety of possibilities and resources, but a very scarce distribution of them so that decision making becomes very important and a tactic in and of itself. It is important for a maintainable and meaningful economy as the very purpose of economics is in fact to manage scarce resources. This is why obtaining gold and items is made difficult, and, by extension, ability to earn it through crafting and/or hunting. This scarcity creates value. For RP leaning people, this extends to PvP as well. They want decision making to be an important choice in character creation and PvP tactics. For the RPer, building the character is a sign of skill just as much as how you use the skills you chose. They want to be able to use CONCEIVABLY ANY skill, weapon, etc to good effect and want to be able to see that possibility for variety put to use. This, coupled with scarcity, also creates a sort of Rock, Paper, Scissors sort of element to PvP as well, where one arrangement of skills tends to have an inherent advantage over another set. Sort of like how elements work in many popular RPGs where fire does double damage to water types. Using fire doesn't guarantee a win against a water type, but it ups the odds. RPers generally try to balance their PvP in such a way that the AVERAGE of a person's wins across a variety of different people comes out to be a true indication of a person's abilities. Anyone should be able to win on occasion, even if they suck on the overall. The fact that the person USUALLY wins is what's important, not that they ALWAYS win because they are more skilled. This is why a limited level of randomness tends to be important to RP style preferences. It also creates for this person a spark of danger and uncertainty because two people who are, in general, equally or closely matched could have the battle swing either way and people who are obviously better still have a thrill from the possibility of losing to anyone. No free lunches, so to speak, by picking on the weaker (although it certainly would be a MUCH EASIER lunch). This is all important to the RPer because it also reflects life a little more closely. Dumb luck happens on occasions and is embraced, not feared. It adds, by nature, to the thrill of battle.
For the typical PvPer, the idea of resource management is viewed as just a menial task, a necessary evil for obtaining what they need to do battle. PvPers want fast action with as little tedium as possible. They want to get in, do their thing, get out, and then do it again to their heart's desire. They don't want scarce resources, they want everyone to have anything and everything so that all other factors except for the ability to use the skills are factored out. They consider this to be the means of showing "true skills." If they are super skilled, they expect that they should win against their rivals, leaving no doubts about whether it is because they got lucky or whatever. The value in the game comes from being able to gloat that they won and to recieve recognition for it. This is why they don't like randomness or "Rock, Paper, Scissors" type effects as I called them. It casts a shadow of doubt to their skills and takes away from their glory. Scarcity, too, is just another venue for your quelled foes to cast doubt on your skills by claiming that you only won cause you have better items or more scrolls or whatever. To a PvP style player, a person who doesn't wear the best armor or equip scrolls is just less skilled because they can't use scarcity as an excuse.
This is just a very quick and lightly thought out series of observations. Also bear in mind that I tried to write it with very broad generalities made about PvP versus RP style players. I figure the best way to analyze something is to use "Ideal generalities" in much the same way that people use them in physics to describe a less than ideal reality.
In conclusion, I see this as ultimately the core problem in at least some of the arguments between IN and XUO players. The problem is a much more fundamental one than just that. Not to make excuses for the INers, but this is why INers seem to me particularly jilted with the PvP as they see it. As many of them have said, it is fundamentally different from what they enjoy on various levels. It also explains why some XUO players get bored with some of the tedium. The ideals are inherently negations of each other. The one unyielding fact is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for either of these schools of thought to get exactly what they want if we want to work together. Ultimately, both sides are exactly right. This can have very disheartening implications, depending on how we want things to work out on this shard. Compromise has to happen in more ways than simply saying "INers get the world and XUOers get the PvP." Neither world nor PvP can remain as they are. Because both sides are exactly right, there really is no reason for either side to feel like they have to compromise. In a sense, they are both perfectly justified. And because they are perfectly justified, it is inevitable that some people will leave if the necessary compromises are made. Because they have no reason, aside from the well being of the shard, to feel that they should have to compromise. We have some work ahead of us, no doubt about that. But these are only growing pains. The vestments of quick change that we weren't quite prepared to deal with. The shard has great potential, I seriously believe that. But both sides have to concentrate less on the idea that they are right, (Because both sides are and this line of thought will lead us nowhere) and more on how we can draw on each other's experiences to come into a cohesive vision. We also have to forfeit our fears of change. We need to actively experiment. Keep track and keep regular intervals of backup scripts so that we can reasonably easily undo any experiments that go awry. We need not only to experiment, but to do so actively and aggressively, especially at these beginning stages, because this is the time to do it. The more quickly and aggressively these growth spurts happen, the more painful they will be, but if we bear through them it'll be over reasonably quickly as well. Bear also into mind that it's a continuing process. No system is ever meant to stay the same, no matter how perfected a point it gets to. Necessity won't allow it.
I actually have some constructive ideas for change, but I'll wait till some people comment on this before I include them, since there will no doubt be things I have overlooked or misinterpreted. In any case, it's a pleasure to be a part of this community, even in this time of change and growing pains. I have high hopes. All the best.
~Valrael
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