10-30-2007, 04:42 AM
Oh my god, Kano, I saw the light thanks to you. You are right :O
A theory on the vet -> noob fairness gap
10-30-2007, 04:49 AM
I've always agreed, as I said earlier, and with hopes to keep this from a flame war and lead on with the productive conversing, I prefer economy over skills any day. YET, here comes the attack:
Veterans have the advantage and will continue for months. By then, when newbie characters are up to par, in suits of shadow, maybe blood rock, that is if they don't borrow friends rare armors, or actually have the cash means to purchase things, they're not going to be able to compete, which might actually adversely affect the PvP aspect.
Garyb and I come for the PVP plus there are many old faces we'd love to hang or kill.
That's right old ***** guys, we have cable now, no 56k!
The transfers are nice for dedicated players who have waited, but many others have waited too and start with nothing.
There is the whole "quit whining and go do something" which is relevant, since I think we all appreciate this shard and the work that went into it, but we also make the shard. Yes, WE. The playerbase and to keep it stable, perhaps balanced, I would like to see a MORE fair chance, monetary or perhaps skill based.
Say, for instance, 65 magery and a spell book up to 6th circle. Or, 2k, 3k per character, one account per IP.
There are many remedies to help the newbie characters find avenues to get up to speed, or at least start macroing faster.
No one is asking for us to be handed skills, but I do think they're asking for a means to better reach an area to macro and produce quality crafted goods, such as higher level armors. I've already seen a few GM smiths (maybe one) and I can most assuredly assume he will make much more money by the time I GM smithy. By then, it may not even be worth it to sell the armors, so in the long run, aside from making my personal affects, why bother with a craft? I think combats should have been transfered, not crafts.
Veterans have the advantage and will continue for months. By then, when newbie characters are up to par, in suits of shadow, maybe blood rock, that is if they don't borrow friends rare armors, or actually have the cash means to purchase things, they're not going to be able to compete, which might actually adversely affect the PvP aspect.
Garyb and I come for the PVP plus there are many old faces we'd love to hang or kill.
That's right old ***** guys, we have cable now, no 56k! The transfers are nice for dedicated players who have waited, but many others have waited too and start with nothing.
There is the whole "quit whining and go do something" which is relevant, since I think we all appreciate this shard and the work that went into it, but we also make the shard. Yes, WE. The playerbase and to keep it stable, perhaps balanced, I would like to see a MORE fair chance, monetary or perhaps skill based.
Say, for instance, 65 magery and a spell book up to 6th circle. Or, 2k, 3k per character, one account per IP.
There are many remedies to help the newbie characters find avenues to get up to speed, or at least start macroing faster.
No one is asking for us to be handed skills, but I do think they're asking for a means to better reach an area to macro and produce quality crafted goods, such as higher level armors. I've already seen a few GM smiths (maybe one) and I can most assuredly assume he will make much more money by the time I GM smithy. By then, it may not even be worth it to sell the armors, so in the long run, aside from making my personal affects, why bother with a craft? I think combats should have been transfered, not crafts.
10-30-2007, 05:00 AM
I mentioned this earlier in a post:
To justify newbie opinions to veteran character opinions:
If people need to work hard ( most of the IN player's justification in newbie character/people to stop whining) to gain back their skills because it's just not carebear, would you all still play, or as many still stick around if you had to start from 0 with 500gps or no means of really getting the cash to macro except a craft which takes a long, long time to show profit?
I think when it's reversed on you, you'd have a whole different opinion.
No one's complaining, really, we're somewhat, passive-aggressively asking for a better chance to catch up.
I'm sure a nice midpoint can be met without affecting the economy.
To justify newbie opinions to veteran character opinions:
If people need to work hard ( most of the IN player's justification in newbie character/people to stop whining) to gain back their skills because it's just not carebear, would you all still play, or as many still stick around if you had to start from 0 with 500gps or no means of really getting the cash to macro except a craft which takes a long, long time to show profit?
I think when it's reversed on you, you'd have a whole different opinion.
No one's complaining, really, we're somewhat, passive-aggressively asking for a better chance to catch up.
I'm sure a nice midpoint can be met without affecting the economy.
10-30-2007, 05:02 AM
Kano Wrote:That is nice of you, and the generous vets, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't have anything to do with the unbalanced economy and player base. In fact, the fact that you have so much that you can just give freebies to new players, FURTHER illustrates how wide the gap is between new players and vets.
I dont have "so much" im just willing to share the little i have... actually atm i have 34gp to my name :p and no armour or anything really of value except for a couple of llamas.... :doubt:
Saintful Sinner, The Ministry
10-30-2007, 05:06 AM
I think he just means that if you dish whatever out, usually without much affect on your personal finances, usually implies that you're going to have a greater economical advantage over everyone. And, in economics, you're gonna get more and more since you have more to work with.;/
10-30-2007, 05:07 AM
You raise a very valid point Kano, and I infinitely appreciate the tone you have set for this discussion.
The fact remains that you cannot appease everyone.
I agree it is horrendous that you start with 500gp. I really think it would be a good idea to let new players start with 10k like IN players do. This doesn't hurt anything, that's very little money I know most IN players blew that gold on the first day buying things that were a necessity. The first week or two is the most frustrating and doing away with the unnecessary tedious beginnings of harvesting leather from rats is something I am all for to help those who are starting fresh get adjusted and on your way to where they want to go.
There is still a great deal of work that remains from that point.
While I agree that magery is a very important skill, I don't think it should be made easy for that very reason. It is fairly easy to macro unattended, as you said the only issue is gold and time. I think after a week of playing gold is alot easier to get. The first week is always the hardest.
Many of your complaints hinge on not having a newbied spellbook. While I'm sure you are partly just using this as an example, I'd like to address that. When you start your character's spellbook should be newbied, if its not that should be fixed. All spellbooks unless looted from a monster should be newbied. Full spellbooks created by scribes should be newbied as well, again if they are not I agree that should be fixed. This way as you hunt and collect spells they stay with you. That is how it should be and how it was intended.
In addition I remember on IN1 ice elf mages dropped full spellbooks. If they don't currently, this should be added. These spellbooks in contrast to the others listed above should not be newbied. Easy to get hard to keep. Hard to get easier to keep.
While the vet-newb gap sucks, it will, sadly, always exist. If you finish your combats first and then do magery with a steady income from hunting or crafting on the side, you should be able to support magery and be at a good level in a week. As someone mentioned, don't use in lor with two regeants when you use can use poison or magic arrow. (Poison is third circle and takes more mana, magic arrow being first circle is a better option but of course you'll have to heal, hence I suggest doing combats and healing before magery). Or you could have someone training healing on you as you train magery with magic arrow.
I understand why you are frustrated and I would be unhappy to a certain extent if I were in your position. However, the shard has only been open three days. The first three days on any shard is frustrating, give it a week and a half and I'm sure you'll find your position to be a little better.
The fact remains that you cannot appease everyone.
I agree it is horrendous that you start with 500gp. I really think it would be a good idea to let new players start with 10k like IN players do. This doesn't hurt anything, that's very little money I know most IN players blew that gold on the first day buying things that were a necessity. The first week or two is the most frustrating and doing away with the unnecessary tedious beginnings of harvesting leather from rats is something I am all for to help those who are starting fresh get adjusted and on your way to where they want to go.
There is still a great deal of work that remains from that point.
While I agree that magery is a very important skill, I don't think it should be made easy for that very reason. It is fairly easy to macro unattended, as you said the only issue is gold and time. I think after a week of playing gold is alot easier to get. The first week is always the hardest.
Many of your complaints hinge on not having a newbied spellbook. While I'm sure you are partly just using this as an example, I'd like to address that. When you start your character's spellbook should be newbied, if its not that should be fixed. All spellbooks unless looted from a monster should be newbied. Full spellbooks created by scribes should be newbied as well, again if they are not I agree that should be fixed. This way as you hunt and collect spells they stay with you. That is how it should be and how it was intended.
In addition I remember on IN1 ice elf mages dropped full spellbooks. If they don't currently, this should be added. These spellbooks in contrast to the others listed above should not be newbied. Easy to get hard to keep. Hard to get easier to keep.
While the vet-newb gap sucks, it will, sadly, always exist. If you finish your combats first and then do magery with a steady income from hunting or crafting on the side, you should be able to support magery and be at a good level in a week. As someone mentioned, don't use in lor with two regeants when you use can use poison or magic arrow. (Poison is third circle and takes more mana, magic arrow being first circle is a better option but of course you'll have to heal, hence I suggest doing combats and healing before magery). Or you could have someone training healing on you as you train magery with magic arrow.
I understand why you are frustrated and I would be unhappy to a certain extent if I were in your position. However, the shard has only been open three days. The first three days on any shard is frustrating, give it a week and a half and I'm sure you'll find your position to be a little better.
Selling Forges and Anvils, 15k Each, 25k for both.
Selling Looms and Spinning Wheels, 15k Each, 25k for both.
Selling Water Troughs, 10k Each
Help me help you, contact info in my profile.
10-30-2007, 05:11 AM
I say give them what they want, they arnt asking for alot. Make regs easier to obtain and magery a little easier. I mean half the people already have gm mage and it only gets better when the new players become stronger. Vets shouldnt mind and the prices of regs won't effect the economy.
*edit
Yes Skorp made a really good point about the spellbooks. You need the elf mages to drop full non newbied spellbooks. This is so newbies have something to work with while they hunt and slowly fill up their newbied one, because at the moment there is no way a scribe is going to make an entire book with 64 spells for a low price its just too much effort.
*edit
Yes Skorp made a really good point about the spellbooks. You need the elf mages to drop full non newbied spellbooks. This is so newbies have something to work with while they hunt and slowly fill up their newbied one, because at the moment there is no way a scribe is going to make an entire book with 64 spells for a low price its just too much effort.
10-30-2007, 05:15 AM
I'm fine with making magery a little easier, it should still be a challenge though. I don't agree that regeant prices should be lowered. Regeants have always been expensive in six years of me playing ultima.
If you train combats by sparring for two or three days you should be able to support magery training after that. If you're training magery at a steady pace you should be at about 75-80 in a week or a week and a half. I don't think a week and a half is too bad honestly.
If you train combats by sparring for two or three days you should be able to support magery training after that. If you're training magery at a steady pace you should be at about 75-80 in a week or a week and a half. I don't think a week and a half is too bad honestly.
Selling Forges and Anvils, 15k Each, 25k for both.
Selling Looms and Spinning Wheels, 15k Each, 25k for both.
Selling Water Troughs, 10k Each
Help me help you, contact info in my profile.
10-30-2007, 05:18 AM
Duke Wrote:I say give them what they want, they arnt asking for alot. Make regs easier to obtain and magery a little easier. I mean half the people already have gm mage and it only gets better when the new players become stronger. Vets shouldnt mind and the prices of regs won't effect the economy.
I wouldnt go as far as giving them GM magery... 80 would be more than enough and i think an acceptable compramise...
Saintful Sinner, The Ministry
10-30-2007, 05:31 AM
Now the thread is moving along nicely :p Much thx to everyone who hasn't shit themselves at me!
Smurtle pretty much hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned:
Yep, the new players will be slaves to the vets craftwise for a long time, rich get richer, poor get poorer type of thing.
Skorpion you bring up some fine points as well.
You're right, magery should not be easy to GM, and yes it is easy to macro. I cannot say for certain if my standpoint is because of the fact that I am frustrated that I can't start bangin the most important pvp skill out yet grr
In regards to my spell book being newbied, I asked a staff member (cannot remember which), if my book was indeed newbied. He asked me If I was GM Magery, and I replied no. He replied "Then it aint newbied". So if he was wrong, I am happier.
Smurtle pretty much hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned:
Smurtle; Wrote:I've already seen a few GM smiths (maybe one) and I can most assuredly assume he will make much more money by the time I GM smithy. By then, it may not even be worth it to sell the armors, so in the long run, aside from making my personal affects, why bother with a craft? I think combats should have been transfered, not crafts.
Yep, the new players will be slaves to the vets craftwise for a long time, rich get richer, poor get poorer type of thing.
Skorpion you bring up some fine points as well.
Skorpion Wrote:While I agree that magery is a very important skill, I don't think it should be made easy for that very reason. It is fairly easy to macro unattended, as you said the only issue is gold and time. I think after a week of playing gold is alot easier to get. The first week is always the hardest.
Many of your complaints hinge on not having a newbied spellbook. While I'm sure you are partly just using this as an example, I'd like to address that. When you start your character's spellbook should be newbied, if its not that should be fixed. All spellbooks unless looted from a monster should be newbied. Full spellbooks created by scribes should be newbied as well, again if they are not I agree that should be fixed. This way as you hunt and collect spells they stay with you. That is how it should be and how it was intended.
You're right, magery should not be easy to GM, and yes it is easy to macro. I cannot say for certain if my standpoint is because of the fact that I am frustrated that I can't start bangin the most important pvp skill out yet grr
In regards to my spell book being newbied, I asked a staff member (cannot remember which), if my book was indeed newbied. He asked me If I was GM Magery, and I replied no. He replied "Then it aint newbied". So if he was wrong, I am happier.
10-30-2007, 05:37 AM
I can't say for sure if he was right or wrong. I will say that if you don't start with a newbied spellbook then I will complain for you myself because that needs to be fixed asap. The one you start with should be newbied.
Selling Forges and Anvils, 15k Each, 25k for both.
Selling Looms and Spinning Wheels, 15k Each, 25k for both.
Selling Water Troughs, 10k Each
Help me help you, contact info in my profile.
10-30-2007, 06:00 AM
I agree, starter spellbooks should always be Newbied.
As for the whole vets vs newbs thing i dunno, whenever i start on a server i never think about the people who already have everything, i just worry about making my char better and better till im up there aswell.
As for the whole vets vs newbs thing i dunno, whenever i start on a server i never think about the people who already have everything, i just worry about making my char better and better till im up there aswell.
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