[sm0ke]

100% of my autoload is shared with all my guild and few other people, and I don't have anything that would give me advantage dude. If anything - I'm sure there are people that know injection much better than me, or even csharp+easyuo which is much more advanced, and allows you to do literally anything. As I already said, the most "advantage-giving" part is drop explosion potions by one, I still have to press the button tho, all it will do is drop 1 explosion potion on ground on tile where last target stands (if I can reach it) and another one that will cast arrow on explosion potion on the ground. Yeah it's much easier than dragging potion on ground by one and then aiming arrow, but well it's still don't do it automated because even simpliest attempt on automatization of this macro like - dropping 5 pots + casting arrow on ground - would force you to include a check on where your character stands so you don't blow yourself, if you think deeper you wouldn't also want to blow your allies, which can be any people, even out of party. And thats what is hard to explain to a script. It has no idea who your friends or how to determine them. My most advanced macro right now is AFK macroing\craft macros. Which can be easily automated . indeed.
If you think about it you'll realize theres no people that use a lot of automatic stuff... Or if you don't mean that I have macros that takes decisions instead of me ,then tell me how does my macro give me any advantage over people?

Once again I didn't say you had macros that are automated to help you or make choices for you but you do have things to help you make those choices such as wav files that tell you when people are below a certain % health, i've seen them and people tell me about them man there's no point in denying it.. You have many scripts like these even requiping with shield and hammer pick when you bandage which is fairly easy to make but i mean you have a lot of custom scripts like i've said.

Anyways theres no point to debat it in loki's pvp thread..

Yeah we can stop debating but I feel like I must clear this out xd About the HP saying wavs - I told you about it on INX times, and the autostart script you are talking of would actually make it say MY hp , not enemies. Which I later found obsolete, as the colored numbers at the left of screen is just better to use, you see it right away + I found that this is better. So I never really used it as it had too much useless stuff in it and I running it at all times made inject lag a lot. It maybe could've help beginners look a bit better, but would be useless for any experienced PvPer. Also, if you want the script that watches for opponents HP (that I NEVER used) it's posted by Logarithm somewhere on the forums, it will print opponents HP on hit I think. (it is 4% inaccurate btw, so you won't know exact hp) so well man seriously if you like to believe I have counters like that - it's your choice ;p. The only checkers that I have(doesn't matter for what hp/mana/amount of scrolls) are only to check do I have certain scroll in backpack or in containers that I have there, and incase if I don't happen to have a scroll then it will cast regular spell. That is it dude. About shield - everyone has it, take two secs to make, so well - use it as well, nobody is stopping you...

I said wav files that plays sound not a HP counter lol, either way like I said I can still kill you what bothers me more is the lag. I'm just saying imo you have too many scripts for every little thing.. enough is enough tho this is getting pages and pages about us id rather have the pvp tweaked a little than redesigned.

[Gang]

Once again I didn't say you had macros that are automated to help you or make choices for you but you do have things to help you make those choices such as wav files that tell you when people are below a certain % health, i've seen them and people tell me about them man there's no point in denying it.. You have many scripts like these even requiping with shield and hammer pick when you bandage which is fairly easy to make but i mean you have a lot of custom scripts like i've said.

Anyways theres no point to debat it in loki's pvp thread..

Yeah we can stop debating but I feel like I must clear this out xd About the HP saying wavs - I told you about it on INX times, and the autostart script you are talking of would actually make it say MY hp , not enemies. Which I later found obsolete, as the colored numbers at the left of screen is just better to use, you see it right away + I realized it's much better to see, than to hear . So I never played with it - only when was testing, as it had too much useless stuff in it and running it at all times made inject lag a lot. It maybe could've help beginners look a bit better, but would be useless for any experienced PvPer. Also, if you want the script that watches for opponents HP (that I NEVER used) it's posted by Logarithm somewhere on the forums, it will print opponents HP on hit I think. (it is 4% inaccurate btw, so you won't know exact hp) so well man seriously if you like to believe I have counters like that - it's your choice ;p. The only checkers that I have(doesn't matter for what hp/mana/amount of scrolls) are only to check do I have certain scroll in backpack or in containers that I have there, and incase if I don't happen to have a scroll then it will cast regular spell. That is it dude. About shield - everyone has it, take two secs to make, so well - use it as well, nobody is stopping you...

[Mito]

I have a macro that search website status and then recall to where my enemies are and kill/loot them automatically and then it banks the items.

EDIT: And then when noone its active it goes to my house and start macroying alchemy.

[Cana]

To get back to topic at hand...

Also, I still think poisoning from weapon shouldn't be as good as the spell that you cast. Because it's random and it's passive, not a dynamic you have to do yourself. By the way, anyone has any idea how poison from weapon works currently? I mean what are chance to poison target if weapon was just poisoned with poisonining skill 100?

Tested this a bit. Chance to apply poison with weapon hit seems low. This is just estimate but it seems 1 out of 8 hits or so actually poisons. In addition, at least war fork does very little damage against the test equipment. Didn't have a chance to test it with any other weapons yet.

I'm sure tweaks are still needed, but overall I like the changes. It brings variety to the system.

[Loki]

To get back to topic at hand...



Tested this a bit. Chance to apply poison with weapon hit seems low. This is just estimate but it seems 1 out of 8 hits or so actually poisons. In addition, at least war fork does very little damage against the test equipment. Didn't have a chance to test it with any other weapons yet.

I'm sure tweaks are still needed, but overall I like the changes. It brings variety to the system.

Sticking with the back-on-topic vibe:

Poison on weapons has a 50% chance to apply according to the script. But Cana is correct that in game it seems to apply a lot less frequently, it could be that there is a hidden cool down somewhere in another script which I have not yet found. Regardless, other than the restrictions made about axes and spears I have not changed the application mechanic so the rate of application and the number of charges given by a poison potion has not been changed.


As for the poison itself, once applied the poison from a weapon behaves identically (same script) as the poison from the spell.

I also agree that the spell takes input, and mana, and this means it should be superior. However, currently I believe it already is since it has range, at GM poisoning it is almost never resisted, and you are guaranteed to apply at the moment you need it, rather than at a random moment. Also, as Cana pointed out the Warfork is a weak weapon and so are most the other weapons that it can be applied to in the new system, so it is a sacrifice to your damage output to be able to poison with your weapon. The SDK, SDB and so on will need adjusting so they are not poison-able if these changes come in.

[Loki]

This is a big post so i'm just gonna post my thought's on what should be changed instead of redesigning the PvP imo.

Honestly the pvp is quite fine as it is now, hits need to be tweaked a bit with armor like i've said FOREVER ago, we don't really need a redesign in the PvP we just need some spells to do much damage and some to heal more such as FS Light and Greater heal, I think aside from that nothing else needs to be changed. The more damage fs can do and be covered by GH will make people who are only 2-3 be able to gank vs bigger numbers because FS damage will be increased and they have a chance to double fs/nuke the player if they have proper timing and coordination.

Whilst this may be a cosmetic solution to some balance issues in the existing PvP I do not believe it tackles the core problems we have which are a lack of complexity, a lack of reward to PvP and a serious lack of variety. We've lost a lot of players and frankly it is because seeing only the same few spells used and a lot of random weapon hitting is not that attractive. You are trying to satisfy a couple of aims:

1) Faster PvP.
2) Less random hitting.

I am also trying to satisfy these, but I also want to do the following:

3) Better variety in PvP playstyles.
4) Higher complexity for rewarding skill, giving people something to grow into and better to watch.
5) More viable world PvP, particularly for single or pair of PvPers.
6) More use of real equipment for PvP to improve loot and stimulate the economy for crafters.
7) To offset this increased cost I wish to reduce the burden of supply cost on PvP and make PvP a little more convenient, especially for new people.
8) To unbreak things that are needlessly broken (e.g. Mana Drain, Mind Blast, regeneration etc.) - it is a shame to have 64 spells and only use 3-4 of them.
9) Reasons to go for stats other than 120/60/120 in world PvP.

I don't know much about XUO having never played there. But I do know that it was Sphere and Sphere was limited and broken. We can do things here that the admin of old Sphere 51a shards would have given their nuts to be able to do, all whilst preserving the basic Sphere 51a style (tank magery, no precasting) because we're on runUO now, we don't have to stick to a narrow style with inelegant and broken solutions to problems.

It's important we make the system more fun, rewarding of skill, and rewarding in loot, and more attractive to watch and take part. Without new people joining us, and wanting to take part in PvP the system will stagnate and this will also be bad for the economy. We need significant change and I think most people here know it, we may not be able to please everyone, sometimes what people want is too hard to apply without being a total game breaker (sorry fizzle PvP people...) but we can certainly please more people, and even those who aren't getting exactly what they want may be more willing to take part and learn a system which is more interesting and rewarding than the one we currently have.

[sm0ke]

Whilst this may be a cosmetic solution to some balance issues in the existing PvP I do not believe it tackles the core problems we have which are a lack of complexity, a lack of reward to PvP and a serious lack of variety. We've lost a lot of players and frankly it is because seeing only the same few spells used and a lot of random weapon hitting is not that attractive. You are trying to satisfy a couple of aims:

1) Faster PvP.
2) Less random hitting.

I am also trying to satisfy these, but I also want to do the following:

3) Better variety in PvP playstyles.
4) Higher complexity for rewarding skill, giving people something to grow into and better to watch.
5) More viable world PvP, particularly for single or pair of PvPers.
6) More use of real equipment for PvP to improve loot and stimulate the economy for crafters.
7) To offset this increased cost I wish to reduce the burden of supply cost on PvP and make PvP a little more convenient, especially for new people.
8) To unbreak things that are needlessly broken (e.g. Mana Drain, Mind Blast, regeneration etc.) - it is a shame to have 64 spells and only use 3-4 of them.
9) Reasons to go for stats other than 120/60/120 in world PvP.

I don't know much about XUO having never played there. But I do know that it was Sphere and Sphere was limited and broken. We can do things here that the admin of old Sphere 51a shards would have given their nuts to be able to do, all whilst preserving the basic Sphere 51a style (tank magery, no precasting) because we're on runUO now, we don't have to stick to a narrow style with inelegant and broken solutions to problems.

It's important we make the system more fun, rewarding of skill, and rewarding in loot, and more attractive to watch and take part. Without new people joining us, and wanting to take part in PvP the system will stagnate and this will also be bad for the economy. We need significant change and I think most people here know it, we may not be able to please everyone, sometimes what people want is too hard to apply without being a total game breaker (sorry fizzle PvP people...) but we can certainly please more people, and even those who aren't getting exactly what they want may be more willing to take part and learn a system which is more interesting and rewarding than the one we currently have.

the XUO maka hosted was runuo and the previous one as well, if he wanted things changed he would of done it himself :p honestly changing all the will confuse new players more than the current system we have now imo. I also don't agree that it will reduce the supplys in PvP, you need to be quite rich here too pvp and you run out of resources fast. I don't know how your going to make all the spells useful and make everyone happy at the same time because on every shard i've ever played even abyss PvP they don't even use all the spells it will never happen so that you use every spell in the book.

you are right about the stats thing tho everyone would just go pure mana/life because I honestly don't think it's balanced the regen and spell damage/healing looking back at the previous post when i listed the things I did all you did was list their mana intake damage and spell cast time which really didn't answer how they were balanced or not.. It just stated things I already knew.

[Habibi Jones]

I know for a fact that new players who join here would be more interested in the "new" system of PvP than the "old" one because it is much more complex, much better to watch, and much better to play.

I can't count how many players I've seen come and go because the PvP was too lame for them. I really have to agree, it's pretty lame. It can definitely be fun, but for the most part it is stale, boring, unrewarding, repetitive, and worst of all SIMPLE.

[Taran]

Don't turn this into a flame war please

[Loki]

the XUO maka hosted was runuo and the previous one as well, if he wanted things changed he would of done it himself :p honestly changing all the will confuse new players more than the current system we have now imo. I also don't agree that it will reduce the supplys in PvP, you need to be quite rich here too pvp and you run out of resources fast. I don't know how your going to make all the spells useful and make everyone happy at the same time because on every shard i've ever played even abyss PvP they don't even use all the spells it will never happen so that you use every spell in the book.

I didn't mean to imply I intend to have all 64 spells used in PvP, but it is common for all the major attacking and healing spells to play a role in PvP (see OSI Publish 17/18, AoS, ML, SA etc.).

you are right about the stats thing tho everyone would just go pure mana/life because I honestly don't think it's balanced the regen and spell damage/healing looking back at the previous post when i listed the things I did all you did was list their mana intake damage and spell cast time which really didn't answer how they were balanced or not.. It just stated things I already knew.

I'm sorry I am not quite sure what you are saying, but high INT does not give higher regeneration, DEX now improves bandages and also gives more swing at higher skill. I think if anything there are more reasons to diversify and up your DEX a little bit than before.

I'd be interested in hearing about what testers have to say about mana management in the new system, in mathcraft it should be comparable to the existing system except that you have more freedom to drink other potions once in a while without it almost certainly leading to going out of mana.

As for intakes, FS has gone up by 4 mana, this isn't really that much, GH scrolls have in fact gone down by 3 mana (although I may revert this as I fear the HPM:HPS ratio of this is too good - but I am waiting for feedback from testers).

In fact in general, this is to all the people who have been testing: I'd love to hear about things that are both good and bad - particularly survivability/ability to kill, mana management and whether the new/changed spells are too strong/weak.

[Habibi Jones]

I didn't mean to imply I intend to have all 64 spells used in PvP, but it is common for all the major attacking and healing spells to play a role in PvP (see OSI Publish 17/18, AoS, ML, SA etc.).



I'm sorry I am not quite sure what you are saying, but high INT does not give higher regeneration, DEX now improves bandages and also gives more swing at higher skill. I think if anything there are more reasons to diversify and up your DEX a little bit than before.

I'd be interested in hearing about what testers have to say about mana management in the new system, in mathcraft it should be comparable to the existing system except that you have more freedom to drink other potions once in a while without it almost certainly leading to going out of mana.

As for intakes, FS has gone up by 4 mana, this isn't really that much, GH scrolls have in fact gone down by 3 mana (although I may revert this as I fear the HPM:HPS ratio of this is too good - but I am waiting for feedback from testers).

In fact in general, this is to all the people who have been testing: I'd love to hear about things that are both good and bad - particularly survivability/ability to kill, mana management and whether the new/changed spells are too strong/weak.

So far the math seems solid, the mana regen and potion reduction balance eachother out to ~ the same mana gains as spamming potions on live. The only difference is, as you said, freedom to use other potions and not having to rely on spamming mana potions. Mana management is much more open to a player's individuality with the new system, yet it is still just as important of an aspect of PvP as it is on live. You cannot waste mana and make stupid dumps just as it is on live, but you are no longer REQUIRED to spam mana potions. Although, if you do decide to save all of your potion CD's for mana potions, you will be able to cast much more than your opponent. This doesn't mean a win at all, it just means that you will be able to cast more. The mana regen really creates the perfect corner stone for a very dynamic PvP because there is no "universal strategy" with your new system as there is with the current live system. With the current system, there is 1 effective playstyle because there are only 10 effective spells, max. The regen with the "new" spells allows players to find numerous effective strategies as well as killer combos and cast sequences.

Survivability in my opinion has increased, but it is nicely offset by a nice increase in lethality. The really important part is that both the increased survivability and lethality are SKILL based, it opens up a lot of doors for talented PvP'ers. Your system provides a pair (or even lone ranger) the oppurtunity to own people, even while outnumbered. The numbers on live simply do not support this and highly favor whoever has more guys in their gank, even a 1 man advantage is usually enough to ensure a win over a team with 1 less. (I didn't say always, pretty sad that I have to point this out so that certain people won't start flaming me)

Duels and 2v2 are much more fun, dynamic, fast paced, and skill based. It takes much more skill to PvP in your system than on live and it is also much more rewarding.

The only thing I find weird about Loki PvP is that harm (level 2 spell) does more damage than lightning. I know originally they were flip flopped and it confused people, so I can understand why it was changed. This actually gives "newbs" a pretty powerful spell to use which is a good thing IMO so I would like to see it stay this way.

I don't see any spells that are overpowered or under powered. I've noticed a lot of people think that mind blast is a bit OP, but if you spam that as your nuke in a fight, you will lose. It's easy to heal out of the mind blast spam unless you have no mana.

A lot of people also have problems with the healing mitigation with poisoning. Since cure scrolls take less than half the mana poison scrolls take, with a faster cast time, being able to heal and cure effectively is completely skill based and does not favor the person poisoning. Proper timing and button pressing can easily counter the poison effect.

It would be nice to see 5v5 tested, or some other real world scenario where a bunch of people are together fighting. That's the only thing I haven't been able to assess/test yet. For that, we need more people to walk through the portal

Also, I suppose I should also say this to avoid nonsense: Everything I said was my opinion and my opinion alone. If there are any testers (people who have actually spent time testing it and didn't immediately give up on it when they didn't like it) who have different opinions please share, because that's what Loki needs in order to "perfect" the system. However I will say that it seems a lot of peoples' grief with the new system is because they are afraid of such a big change. This is definitely a big change in the PvP and it will surely take some time for even the current best PvPers to become the ownage machines that they are capable of being.

[Eclipse]

I can't wait for the new system it is much more fun.