[sm0ke]

- I cannot state this firmly enough: This is a real world PvP patch, not a dueling patch, dueling may be slightly messed up after this, I am ok with that because I can fix it by region control. In other words I am not interested in what affect this has in 5 x 5 box dueling, I don't expect 5 x 5 dueling to be perfect with these changes and I am not going to adjust things (globally) for the sake of 5 x 5 dueling.

I duno how you can say this though loki considering the whole time we were on the test server we used a 5x5 box to test things :p, if you think about it world pvp is the same thing as 1v1 in a box I think by fixing in a box it would make it balanced in the real world as well. Players can always run if they want changing the pvp won't really have an effect on the world pvp. If you want to create more world PvP you need to remove invis pots or recall scrolls or something. I understand you want to see more world PvP but you can't force people to do anything for example things at the bridge will never change even if you get these shorter walls implanted they'll just cast more or have more people casting. Lets just face it, people here are afraid to lose their items to someone whose better than they are. they rather run and recall rather than actually trying to fight for their loot in destard for example they'll just run and rather keep their own items.. People just give up too easy..

constantly changing the pvp will just cause inconsistance and making players upset that it keeps changing constantly and have to learn a new style and the damage/healing of spells

[Scare crow]

I duno how you can say this though loki considering the whole time we were on the test server we used a 5x5 box to test things :p, if you think about it world pvp is the same thing as 1v1 in a box I think by fixing in a box it would make it balanced in the real world as well. Players can always run if they want changing the pvp won't really have an effect on the world pvp. If you want to create more world PvP you need to remove invis pots or recall scrolls or something. I understand you want to see more world PvP but you can't force people to do anything for example things at the bridge will never change even if you get these shorter walls implanted they'll just cast more or have more people casting. Lets just face it, people here are afraid to lose their items to someone whose better than they are. they rather run and recall rather than actually trying to fight for their loot in destard for example they'll just run and rather keep their own items.. People just give up too easy..

constantly changing the pvp will just cause inconsistance and making players upset that it keeps changing constantly and have to learn a new style and the damage/healing of spells

I agree with Depth on this one. You can't FORCE players to world PVP.. this shard has already been set-up for GANKING and Not 1v1 world PVP. The changes that are made to scrolls, pots spells should be as effective in the duel arena as they are outside of the duel arena as players need to adapt to the new PVP style. The good PVPers will already know how to kill players in the world and in the arena. I have dueled Depth for HOURS on the test server and we were able to kill eachother over and over using the same technique... mitigation is way to OP. In case you were wondering.. imagine Mitigation in weorld PVP.. 2 guys FSing you while the mitigation is happening. This is making it harder for the bads to get away...

If you want to encourage the world PVP, remove the recall scrolls and invis pots like Depth said and reduce the effect of mitigation. The scroll damage increase is a nice little touch and weapon damages but some of those changes are just going to make it easier for the "better" guilds to kill people which i'm totally fine with because my guild knows how to gank but.. aren't we trying to help the shard as a whole?

Just my 2 cents... I was on the test server for hours testing it out and there are some GREAT changes BUT, there are also some that will screw people hardcore. If you want details, feel free to PM me or just ask Depth as we have discussed the flaws already.

Thanks.

[Loki]

I disagree on a few points there sm0ke...

1) I actually told you to practice outside the box. Regardless, if you can out heal a nuke in a box you can out heal it in world PvP with consummate ease, it is likely to for world PvP to be viable for smaller groups or hunters then it has to be higher damage output.

2) Duels involve mana punishment and so on, these should still exist in world PvP but we also don't want to see group PvP that is just mana pot spamming.

3) There is a difference between escaping a fight, and being able to live indefinitely because the game is not balanced to account for things like LoS.

So there are differences. I do agree about finding other ways to encourage fighting and reduce the fear of loss and so on, but that will come later.

Also if the changes go global we can expect economic changes (reduction in price of poison, mana pots, things like that) as this is only logical.

Edit: If these changes go in there won't be another set of changes of this scale happening again anytime soon. Fixing duels with region control is pretty easy, could even make it so it does not require a restart.

[sm0ke]

I disagree on a few points there sm0ke...

1) I actually told you to practice outside the box. Regardless, if you can out heal a nuke in a box you can out heal it in world PvP with consummate ease, it is likely to for world PvP to be viable for smaller groups or hunters then it has to be higher damage output.

2) Duels involve mana punishment and so on, these should still exist in world PvP but we also don't want to see group PvP that is just mana pot spamming.

3) There is a difference between escaping a fight, and being able to live indefinitely because the game is not balanced to account for things like LoS.

So there are differences. I do agree about finding other ways to encourage fighting and reduce the fear of loss and so on, but that will come later.

Also if the changes go global we can expect economic changes (reduction in price of poison, mana pots, things like that) as this is only logical.

Edit: If these changes go in there won't be another set of changes of this scale happening again anytime soon. Fixing duels with region control is pretty easy, could even make it so it does not require a restart.

1) It's all population it has nothing to do with the increase of spell damage though, if they have players online they won't roll in smaller groups just because the damage has increased. I'm not saying that it was a bad thing just saying that constantly changing the pvp will create inconsitance and causing players to be upset.

2) there is a lot of mana punishment in ganking when you dump someone you can easily counter depending on how fast you switch and if they don't choose to use LoS or not, I don't know what you want it's not like people will run up to other players and try to melee them in this pvp so ofc it will be about mana pot drinking even if you reduce the cost of potions and intake of mana on scrolls it won't change it at all just the numbers and inconsitancey like i've been saying..

3) By all means I don't think anyone should be able to escape whenever they want you can create LoS with walls of stone etc, use dungeon entrances walls doors buildings trees there's so much that's accountable that's never used or even talked about because half of these players don't even know what they're doing.

Yeah prices will lower, but you can also expect players to carry less items which is again already a problem that people are complaining about saying it's not even worth killing people..

[Loki]

Scare, I'm aware of the mitigation issue, and I will keep an eye on it. But for your specific example of 2 FSing and 1 poisoning, 3 guys FSing would kill even faster I suspect, but in a cross healing team situation managing curing and healing adds a bit of skill to the whole thing.

I'm not sure what you mean about favouring richer guilds, I'm reducing the need for expensive mana pots, endless amounts of scrolls and the weapon damage increases are on the base weapon types and affect crappy weapons as well as high end ones. The main difference will be the need to wear armour, but I've tried to design the system that people on a respectable AR (say 40) will not be penalized significantly by any of the AR-dependent spell damages or weapon changes.

[Loki]

1) It's all population it has nothing to do with the increase of spell damage though, if they have players online they won't roll in smaller groups just because the damage has increased. I'm not saying that it was a bad thing just saying that constantly changing the pvp will create inconsitance and causing players to be upset.

Yes there will always be ganking, but a single or pair of PKs or such may stand a decent chance of having some fun hit and run or playing skillfully vs. small groups. Currently anything below a 3 man team is almost pointless and very few even try from what I have seen when spying on players. I want to open up as many options but also remove none that already exist.

2) there is a lot of mana punishment in ganking when you dump someone you can easily counter depending on how fast you switch and if they don't choose to use LoS or not, I don't know what you want it's not like people will run up to other players and try to melee them in this pvp so ofc it will be about mana pot drinking even if you reduce the cost of potions and intake of mana on scrolls it won't change it at all just the numbers and inconsitancey like i've been saying..

Once the testing phase is over, if the changes go in, there will not be constant changes afterwards. We have no intention of causing that sort of chaos.

3) By all means I don't think anyone should be able to escape whenever they want you can create LoS with walls of stone etc, use dungeon entrances walls doors buildings trees there's so much that's accountable that's never used or even talked about because half of these players don't even know what they're doing.

Yeah prices will lower, but you can also expect players to carry less items which is again already a problem that people are complaining about saying it's not even worth killing people..

I think gear will have a more significant but reasonable affect on fighting after the changes, this should provide loot but reduce the huge resource cost of PvP. Don't get me wrong, people will still need the basics: pots, FS/Gh/Mr scrolls and so on.

[Artur]

Loki can I help on test server?

[sm0ke]

Yes there will always be ganking, but a single or pair of PKs or such may stand a decent chance of having some fun hit and run or playing skillfully vs. small groups. Currently anything below a 3 man team is almost pointless and very few even try from what I have seen when spying on players. I want to open up as many options but also remove none that already exist.


Once the testing phase is over, if the changes go in, there will not be constant changes afterwards. We have no intention of causing that sort of chaos.



I think gear will have a more significant but reasonable affect on fighting after the changes, this should provide loot but reduce the huge resource cost of PvP. Don't get me wrong, people will still need the basics: pots, FS/Gh/Mr scrolls and so on.

1) Yeah but what I'm saying is those people who are 3 or less need to join a guild don't change the shard around little groups of ganking because they're are a lot of big guilds on the shard. Allowing them to have a chance to gank will also effect the guilds on the shard who roll as in lets say 7v7 with these changes it effects them HUGELY like healing wise and damage wise. Especially with this poison mitigation, I just don't see the need to force it like this because they don't like ganking in a bigger group of 2-3 more people..

2) All I'm stating is from experience and observation I've been here a month or so and the PvP has already changed 3 times with damage and healing now, it's quite inconsistant and if this type of PvP doesn't pan out once again it will probably be changed AGAIN is what i'm saying.

3) Of course they'll need scrolls and pots and probably armor but whats stopping them to use the very minimal of each resource with these changes? 5 of each scroll and pot just enough to kill someone loot more and bank it and do the same thing over and over? That's all that happens at the bridge I don't know if you notice or not but that's exactly what happens :/

[Loki]

Loki can I help on test server?

Test server is over, there will be a testing area on the live server soon. Details will come when I've had time to set it all up (scripts are now in).

[Artur]

All right

[Loki]

1) Yeah but what I'm saying is those people who are 3 or less need to join a guild don't change the shard around little groups of ganking because they're are a lot of big guilds on the shard. Allowing them to have a chance to gank will also effect the guilds on the shard who roll as in lets say 7v7 with these changes it effects them HUGELY like healing wise and damage wise. Especially with this poison mitigation, I just don't see the need to force it like this because they don't like ganking in a bigger group of 2-3 more people..

I think you're misunderstanding my aim, I fully intend for large group battles to also function, all types of world PvP are my concern. On IN1 we had people solo hunting, duo hunting, ganking, group battles, it all worked and there's no reason to aim for less here. Not everyone likes to duel, not everyone likes to gank, or team play. I want to be able to provide a system where there is something for everyone. I have no intention of ruining any specific play style. Quite the opposite in fact.

2) All I'm stating is from experience and observation I've been here a month or so and the PvP has already changed 3 times with damage and healing now, it's quite inconsistant and if this type of PvP doesn't pan out once again it will probably be changed AGAIN is what i'm saying.

Previous changes have been small tweaks attempting to fix big problems, this is the attempt to fix them properly. We are losing players over the slow pace of PvP and unviability of different kinds of world PvP, this is what I aim to fix. No point in a dead server with great duel arenas. Though for the record I also still plan to have great duel arenas too.

3) Of course they'll need scrolls and pots and probably armor but whats stopping them to use the very minimal of each resource with these changes? 5 of each scroll and pot just enough to kill someone loot more and bank it and do the same thing over and over? That's all that happens at the bridge I don't know if you notice or not but that's exactly what happens :/

Nothing can stop that, but if there is more fun to be had in fighting properly and going to other places to fight if world PvP is better then hopefully people will start to do that.

[sm0ke]

I think you're misunderstanding my aim, I fully intend for large group battles to also function, all types of world PvP are my concern. On IN1 we had people solo hunting, duo hunting, ganking, group battles, it all worked and there's no reason to aim for less here. Not everyone likes to duel, not everyone likes to gank, or team play. I want to be able to provide a system where there is something for everyone. I have no intention of ruining any specific play style. Quite the opposite in fact.



Previous changes have been small tweaks attempting to fix big problems, this is the attempt to fix them properly. We are losing players over the slow pace of PvP and unviability of different kinds of world PvP, this is what I aim to fix. No point in a dead server with great duel arenas. Though for the record I also still plan to have great duel arenas too.



Nothing can stop that, but if there is more fun to be had in fighting properly and going to other places to fight if world PvP is better then hopefully people will start to do that.

1) Isn't there a hunting system here already why does it have to be protected? I mean your out of town guards I think sometimes you should be able to die, hey I mean look at this way pvp can be a money sink for other players if people just hunt non stop and get away with it that's another big reason why the economy is messed up it's too easy to survive and too easy to hunt.. I think that about 90% of the shard isn't happy with the pvp atm, I don't think we need major changes tho it mostly has to do with armor rating and hitting, spell damage increasing and healing increasing is also a nice addition ofc but I'm seriously not fond of the idea of the poisoning. There is something for everyone they just need to join a guild or make an ally the shard shouldn't revolve around them causing other players to die more quickly because they don't have people to play with.

2) Well that's what i'm saying there's too many changes going on there's too many differences between ganking pvp and naked dueling.. it's just so inconsistant with changes and other aspects of the pvp