reduce weights please please please - Printable Version
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reduce weights please please please - imported_Ryuuku - 03-17-2009
Always gonna have new people getting on, We cant stop the progress to wait every new guy who enter in the shard to gm his crafts. Anyway ever if it gonna need to be crafted for sure they can put certains igredients to make the item cheaper and buyable by everyone.
50k arent much money ever for a new guy. At last if he know the way to make money.
reduce weights please please please - Eighty Swords - 03-17-2009
You're 99.99% right Ryuuku, there will (hopefully) always be new people coming or older players returning and it isn't fair to everyone else to stop any progress.
But in some areas of the shard you can introduce fixes that are scripted and don't revolve around a quest or GMed craft skills. I know you have at least blacksmithing GMed so maybe that's why you don't mind the idea as much, because as it is today you're set up to make money off this new craftable (if that's how it's implemented).
I'm not sure how you figure 50k is easy for a new player to make. Think it through how long you have to macro so you have decent skill levels before you go out and hunt, or how long it takes you to gather resources with your harvesting skills starting at zero (it took me 5 hours last night to get 2k iron with my mining already at 75).
I think if you start from SCRATCH, without 1gp or 1 ingot of help from another player or another one of your characters you will see just how long it takes to get to a position where you can make some decent cash. Then tell me if you think it's fast to get 50k as a new player considering all the other stuff they have to do.
If you're a former INR player you got 60% harvesting and 100% crafting transfers. No wonder you aren't complaining about the time it takes to make money or the fact it will require GMed crafting skills. Hell if it required 3 GMed combats I wouldn't complain because I got 80% transfers there!
It's all relative and for a new guy he gets nothing so that's even harder then for a former XUO player who got 70% harvesting and 40% crafting.
Besides, if it's scripted in for a weight change it's not like you're losing out on something, you just don't have yet another way to make money on top of all the ones you already have.
I ask the staff to please consider what I'm saying and that we need to try and be fair to everyone, and make other people happy who don't want to see every new feature in the form of a quest.
reduce weights please please please - imported_Ryuuku - 03-17-2009
Just to make it clear, from beggin I just sugested a quest to increase the max weight. So people come with the idea of crafting something.
Ok...With 75 mining is harder to get iron than with 39.9 where you get just Iron and Old Cooper.
To gm BS I made another char and locked the skill to get just old cooper and Iron and I get like 1k+ iron per hour ( I sit here, let the macro running and go watch Naruto or any other anime), I think I have to pass you my macro cause 5hrs to get 2k is to much time even with 75 where you get alot other types.
I had a Char on INR but dont had a transfer cause the server goes down and when come back I couldnt get my skill transfered. So I started from 0 (50 magery, 50 taming).
When you start from 0 you can go mining or tailor, get enought cotton for a night that isnt hard and you already have 10k+ gold (that what I did, Gmed Tailor and had enought money to gm Magery and still left alot gold).
So if someone start with 0 mining till he reach 50 he already gonna have like 5k Iron ( I say that cause my friend when started, he beggin with 0 mining and dont trained to 40, so when he got 50 mining he already was with 5k+ irons) and can sell it for 50k+ .
Also have lumber to sell wood or train carpentry.
reduce weights please please please - imported_Hiroshima - 03-17-2009
Totally agree with all this, a new craftable backpack should be implemente to resource gathering. I dont think they should be put in to run around or PvP. And of course they will be lootable.
reduce weights please please please - imported_Jiraiya - 03-18-2009
I dunno, I like the idea of different bags, craftable by GM tailoring. You can make it expensive to make them in range of 20-25k, 30k to sell probably so a crafter can make a profit. Could be done similar to weaving where you have a limited use kit.
Would be better not to group them together, heres why. If you make a bag lumber/mining resources, then the resource gatherer only needs 1 bag to do everything. Two different bags means he needs to buy them based on what he will use it for. A wool/cotton/thread/flax/etc bag would be good too for tailors.
The nice thing about the bag system is its boosting economy, its also expandable as in you can always add in new bags later with different benefits or made from different mats etc.
Aside from that, I'd personally like a quest or event or something that allows me to increase max carry capacity, even if only by 10% or something.
Eightyswords I see what your trying to say about just a blanket 1 weight per ore or log etc. But that actually isnt fair to everyone. It ofcourse benefits resource gatherers only. And if you want increased carry capacity in your person so you dont have to use things like a packhorse, then yeah I think you should be paying for that, and also risking something.
Right now, a miner has a small reg bag, a rune to town, a pick, and some ores on him. Its not worth killing miners because you prolly spend more on the scrolls then you get from killing them. However if miners or lumberjacks are carrying around a bag worth 30-40k that makes them a target. Why is that good? Because resourcing here you will never die if you go to remote places, of which there are plenty. No pvpers bother to look for miners, just no profit in it.
Also, I dont think 30% reduction is enough, because now the miners have something valuble on them and need to be able to defend themselves. So now they need to wear a set of armor so explode doesnt just own them and they lose their expensive bag, they'll want to carry some scrolls/pots, etc. For a lootable bag that reduces the weight of the resources inside it by 50% I'd pay 40k for that I'm sure. Just be aware though, that this isnt something new players would be able to afford easily. It took me at least a few days to buy a house for 35k or whatever when I started.
Although in response to whoever was saying its hard to get 40k, its not, especially not now for a new player. Get your magery off stone with archery and hide or something, macro eval int. Go to dungeon, kill some stuff till you got enough money for some blade scrolls. Then within a few hours running around killin extremes you can have 50k no bother. Its just about knowing where stuff is, and whats the most profitable, which new players ofcourse dont know. But my point is, if any long time player who has knowledge of the hunting spawns and stuff was to start a new char fresh with no interference from their other chars they could easily accumulate 40k very quickly.
reduce weights please please please - Eighty Swords - 03-19-2009
Jiraiya Wrote:Eightyswords I see what your trying to say about just a blanket 1 weight per ore or log etc. But that actually isnt fair to everyone. It ofcourse benefits resource gatherers only. And if you want increased carry capacity in your person so you dont have to use things like a packhorse, then yeah I think you should be paying for that, and also risking something.
Jiraiya giving extra carrying capacity to everyone is fair, not that everyone needs it. Let me explain:
-PVPers can carry more scrolls and pots so they lose more when they die (they still have the option to carry less of course). But I doubt they will carry 100 of each scroll and 100 mana pots and 100 health pots so they don't really need it.
-PVMers can carry more monster loot so they lose more when they die (they still have the option to return to town as often as now of course). But we're talking about reducing the weight of resources right now not items or gold which you get when fighting monsters.
-Gatherers can carry more so if they get attacked as they're mining and aren't fast enough to recall (if they're carrying regs) or as they're going to town they can lose more (they still have the option to go back when they want to of course).
-Crafters can carry more resources and don't have to run back and forth to restock as they sell what they make while training their skills. This speeds up training craft skills a little bit and makes it a little less annoying.
Let us understand the point of this item you suggest should be expensive to buy: a bag that reduces the weight of its contents, thus allowing you to carry more. You now say that since this is expensive people using one will want to protect themselves and carry armor, regs, scrolls, etc. But that all weighs something and nerfs the new feature you want to implement in the means of this bag.
As it stands PVPers and PVMers are already equipping themselves with armor, regs, scrolls, etc, so they won't have to carry these extra items and then they benefit more so from this item that will let you carry more.
You also suggest a different type of bag for different types of resources. So now you're asking me to spend 30k (or however much) of my hard earned gold times however many bags I need so I can carry more of different types of resources?
Out of everything you wrote, the only people I see benefiting from this craftable item is someone with the necessary crafting skills already GMed and giving them another item to make money off their GMed skills.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of you guys posting here have GM tailoring or whatever the necessary skill would be and are pushing so much for the craftable item just to make more money for yourselves. My way nobody gains anything and nobody goes nuts when they lose some expensive item that lets them carry more weight.
Right now it's pretty clear that everyone wants to be able to carry more weight so now it's a matter of how it's implemented. I think the easiest way to did this is change the weight of resources in the scripts, and I say resources because that's the topic of this thread, not every item in the world.
I think this way it helps everyone and especially someone new to this shard who likes to mine or harvest wood. We need to attract new players so we need to find ways that will favor a new player over the guy who has been here for 2 years and is sitting on their pile of gold counting it over and over like Ebenezer Scrooge.
reduce weights please please please - imported_Jiraiya - 03-19-2009
Eighty Swords Wrote:Quote:Quote:Jiraiya giving extra carrying capacity to everyone is fair, not that everyone needs it. Let me explain:
Eightyswords I see what your trying to say about just a blanket 1 weight per ore or log etc. But that actually isnt fair to everyone. It ofcourse benefits resource gatherers only. And if you want increased carry capacity in your person so you dont have to use things like a packhorse, then yeah I think you should be paying for that, and also risking something.
You've taken my quote out of context. I was speaking about your idea of making ore and logs weigh less, not about a raise in everyones carry capacity.
Eighty Swords Wrote:Let us understand the point of this item you suggest should be expensive to buy: a bag that reduces the weight of its contents, thus allowing you to carry more. You now say that since this is expensive people using one will want to protect themselves and carry armor, regs, scrolls, etc. But that all weighs something and nerfs the new feature you want to implement in the means of this bag.
I also said that was the reason why I thought a 30% bag was too low and asked for a 50% bag to compensate for that. And thanks for clearing up that we're talking about bags that reduce the weight of its contents. I think we were all unable to comprehend until you laid it out so clearly.
Eighty Swords Wrote:As it stands PVPers and PVMers are already equipping themselves with armor, regs, scrolls, etc, so they won't have to carry these extra items and then they benefit more so from this item that will let you carry more.
Of course its a symbiotic relationship, the bigger the prey the more the predator can eat if he catches it. But your not taking into consideration any of the logistics involved in finding miners or loggers, its basically impossible. If you think I'm wrong about this I'll go afk in a mine somewhere for 6 hours, see if you can find me, and thats with knowing I'd be there. Also the simple fact that the people who gain the most benefit from this is.... who'd have guessed it, resource gatherers. They could carry 2x as much per load.
Eighty Swords Wrote:You also suggest a different type of bag for different types of resources. So now you're asking me to spend 30k (or however much) of my hard earned gold times however many bags I need so I can carry more of different types of resources?
Exactly. A satchel for carrying large amounts of raw ore or ignots would be crafted in a very different way from one designed to carry bundles of logs. Its pretty simple really. If your a miner, you mine a lot, perhaps are doing bs as well, thats a good investment for you. You can still log, just not carrying 2x as much. If you decide later you want to increase your log carry capacity you might invest in one. Its a bonus not an essential.
Eighty Swords Wrote:Out of everything you wrote, the only people I see benefiting from this craftable item is someone with the necessary crafting skills already GMed and giving them another item to make money off their GMed skills.
So the resourcers being able to carry 2x as much isnt beneficial to them? Uh.. ok
Tailor is easy to do. A bit time consuming but easy and ofcourse you make money from doing the skill when you gather the wool yourself.
I'd be against making it require some other stupid hard skill like carp or bs or some other such nonsense.
Eighty Swords Wrote:I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of you guys posting here have GM tailoring or whatever the necessary skill would be and are pushing so much for the craftable item just to make more money for yourselves. My way nobody gains anything and nobody goes nuts when they lose some expensive item that lets them carry more weight.
No I'm not GM tailor yet, though a fairly good chunk of the population already has that skill gm'd. Its easy to gather resources for doing tailor. Its nowhere near as hard as BS or carp. And just a FYI, most of the people posting in this thread already have absolutely everything they would need gold for anyway, so, well I can only speak for myself, but personal gain never factored into the equation for me. I see it as an opportunity to expand the crafting economy while providing functionality thats being asked for.
Eighty Swords Wrote:Right now it's pretty clear that everyone wants to be able to carry more weight so now it's a matter of how it's implemented. I think the easiest way to did this is change the weight of resources in the scripts, and I say resources because that's the topic of this thread, not every item in the world.
Its definitely the easiest way. The question is then is it the ideal way? Maybe, maybe not, thats the point of this discussion. Give the staff good arguments from many perspectives and hopefully they can make the best informed choice possible when/if they impliment it.
Eighty Swords Wrote:I think this way it helps everyone and especially someone new to this shard who likes to mine or harvest wood. We need to attract new players so we need to find ways that will favor a new player over the guy who has been here for 2 years and is sitting on their pile of gold counting it over and over like Ebenezer Scrooge.
I agree 100%
Though I like to picture those sort of guys as scrooge mcduck.
reduce weights please please please - Eighty Swords - 03-19-2009
Jiraiya Wrote:You've taken my quote out of context. I was speaking about your idea of making ore and logs weigh less, not about a raise in everyones carry capacity.
Yes, that is the target of my suggestion, to reduce the weight of a few specific items, not everything in the world (reducing the weight of everything being the equivalent of increasing everyone's carrying capacity).
Jiraiya Wrote:And thanks for clearing up that we're talking about bags that reduce the weight of its contents. I think we were all unable to comprehend until you laid it out so clearly.
Sarcasm really isn't due here...
Jiraiya Wrote:Exactly. A satchel for carrying large amounts of raw ore or ignots would be crafted in a very different way from one designed to carry bundles of logs. Its pretty simple really. If your a miner, you mine a lot, perhaps are doing bs as well, thats a good investment for you. You can still log, just not carrying 2x as much. If you decide later you want to increase your log carry capacity you might invest in one. Its a bonus not an essential.
And who says nobody will ever harvest more then one resource in their time on UO? With different bags it's more money going from the gatherer currently working the hardest or longest to the crafter who has an item handed to him on a silver platter to make him richer... So instead of lowering weights to benefit everyone, crafters get the extra benefit of yet another means to make money when they don't have a use for the item themselves.
Jiraiya Wrote:Eighty Swords Wrote:Out of everything you wrote, the only people I see benefiting from this craftable item is someone with the necessary crafting skills already GMed and giving them another item to make money off their GMed skills.So the resourcers being able to carry 2x as much isnt beneficial to them? Uh.. ok
That's the exact point though, it's the gatherers who need this the most, not someone trying to PVP or someone with GMed crafts who makes items on an as needed basis and not to raise their skills.
Just like how the bomberman event was added to give the non hardcore PVPers an enjoyable event, or how more quests are added to make the RPers happy, or how CTF and DM were added to make the PVPers happy. Everything added to this server has a a target audience, and in the case of my suggestion the target audience is gatherers.
reduce weights please please please - imported_Jiraiya - 03-19-2009
Eighty Swords Wrote:Sarcasm really isn't due here...
Yeah sorry about that :/ I'm a bit too much of a sarcastic bastard sometimes.
Eighty Swords Wrote:And who says nobody will ever harvest more then one resource in their time on UO? With different bags it's more money going from the gatherer currently working the hardest or longest to the crafter who has an item handed to him on a silver platter to make him richer... So instead of lowering weights to benefit everyone, crafters get the extra benefit of yet another means to make money when they don't have a use for the item themselves.
Er wait a minute. How is it that a crafter; who has gathered all those same resources before, and done all the work to gm his/her skills; is being handed anything on a silver platter? I'm sorry I just cannot wrap my head around your thinking on that one. I mean demonizing crafter's? C'mon.
Everyone is a player, and I'd wager about 90% of players would benefit from this, your focusing so much on this "Resourcer's" label that your forgetting every player is a potential resource gatherer. Hardly anyone plays uo JUST to chop logs for 2 hours a day and then log off, it just doesn't happen lol. The crafter's themselves would use these, along with anyone and everyone else. In practice I think you'd find many crafters would be willing to do trades of resources for a bag or give as gifts to help out new players. I give out free stuff all the time and I know many others who do as well.
Eighty Swords Wrote:That's the exact point though, it's the gatherers who need this the most, not someone trying to PVP or someone with GMed crafts who makes items on an as needed basis and not to raise their skills.
Whether they gather resources or pvp or craft or hunt, they are all players, and they all effect each other. Especially on a shard where everyone can be everything with 1 char. Thats why when you impliment changes you have to look at how it could effect all the playerbase, and then hopefully shape it for maximum positive effect.
reduce weights please please please - Eighty Swords - 03-19-2009
Jiraiya Wrote:Er wait a minute. How is it that a crafter; who has gathered all those same resources before, and done all the work to gm his/her skills; is being handed anything on a silver platter? I'm sorry I just cannot wrap my head around your thinking on that one. I mean demonizing crafter's? C'mon.
I'm not trying to 'demonize' crafters, or any player type for that matter. I'm trying to show how it's the gatherers that need this new feature the most, more so than pvpers who aren't looking to carry 700 stones worth of stuff, or a crafter who already went through this hellish process of getting resources and GMing his skills. I think it's very rare for a crafter with GM skills to keep making daggers continuously as they don't really gain anything there.
One of my other points is now that the player has GMed whatever the necessary skill would be, he gets another way to make more money when he already has plenty of ways, hence the silver platter and catering to them. Again, it's the gatherer that needs it the most, as he's in the process of gathering the resources.
Jiraiya Wrote:Everyone is a player, and I'd wager about 90% of players would benefit from this, your focusing so much on this "Resourcer's" label that your forgetting every player is a potential resource gatherer. Hardly anyone plays uo JUST to chop logs for 2 hours a day and then log off, it just doesn't happen lol. The crafter's themselves would use these, along with anyone and everyone else. In practice I think you'd find many crafters would be willing to do trades of resources for a bag or give as gifts to help out new players. I give out free stuff all the time and I know many others who do as well.
Whether they gather resources or pvp or craft or hunt, they are all players, and they all effect each other. Especially on a shard where everyone can be everything with 1 char. Thats why when you impliment changes you have to look at how it could effect all the playerbase, and then hopefully shape it for maximum positive effect.
I know full well everyone is a potential resource gatherer and the fact is if someone PVPs 90% of the time and gathers/crafts the other 10% of his time, it's the 10% portion of his time where he needs this feature. Not the 90% portion of his time, so it's not as useful to him then. Like you said, everyone is a potential resource gatherer so that's more people buying the item, making the crafters who already have plenty of ways to get rich even richer. Again, hence the silver platter.
And kudos to you for helping new guys out. Remember I played XUO before INX and it wasn't exactly full of super nice people willing to go out of their way to help a new guy. Normally the new guy got tricked into going into Occlo and gets ganked. Sure some people did help, but it sure wasn't the norm. I'd say it was the GMs on their mortals more then anyone else helping new guys.
Does this help explain why I think gatherers are the target audience for this feature?
reduce weights please please please - imported_Jiraiya - 03-19-2009
Eighty Swords Wrote:I think it's very rare for a crafter with GM skills to keep making daggers continuously as they don't really gain anything there.
Yeah, a blacksmith doesnt need igs to make armor or anything. And being GM carp obviously removes the logs requirement from crafting furniture
Sorry for being sarcastic again.
Eighty Swords Wrote:One of my other points is now that the player has GMed whatever the necessary skill would be, he gets another way to make more money when he already has plenty of ways, hence the silver platter and catering to them. Again, it's the gatherer that needs it the most, as he's in the process of gathering the resources.
Yes those plenty of ways to make cash are by SELLING THEIR CRAFTABLE ITEMS. Ya know, the reason they go through the hellishly long skillgain process to GM the skill to begin with. You act like a crafter just snaps his fingers and magically he has gm in a skill and can instantly make zillions. The fact is, a tailor can sell 2 things right now if he's gm. First, colored cloth of whatever tub he picked at gm, second, carpets. Thats it.
The profits you gain from that provided you can even sell anything at all is the smallest fraction of what you dump into the skill to gm it. And every resource gatherer is a crafter as well.
I see what your saying, that someone just starting out mining for money for a house or for magery macro or whatever is just doing it to sell the resource and not use it. But thats a fairly stupid way to do it, I did that same thing myself, only later realizing I'd have been much better off gathering wool for tailor, making bandana's and selling them. Or using iron for tinker and selling lockpicks. These are both good ways for new players to make cash by using their resource.
Eighty Swords Wrote:Like you said, everyone is a potential resource gatherer so that's more people buying the item, making the crafters who already have plenty of ways to get rich even richer. Again, hence the silver platter.
We're just going round in circles here mate. So I'll give you a different example. Say this item cost 25k to craft, you can sell for 30k. Thats a 5k profit obviously. Now say theres an active playerbase of 25 people. You will never be able to sell it to every one of those people, maybe 5 at most would buy (theres lots of crafters, people would just make it themselves etc.) So you make 25k profit over the course of say a week as people shop and eventually buy one. I can make 25k hunting in less then 20 minutes. As can anyone with basic hunting skills. Crafters here have very very few ways to actually make any profit. If smiths were to sell armor based on the amount of ore/igs they had to use to gm smithing, a set of exceptional old copper armor would be like 60k. Crafters gain the skills here because they enjoy doing it and like having the functionality to do things themselves, not to make profit. If they wanted profit they'd keep all their gold instead of dumping into skills which you never seen a true return on.
Eighty Swords Wrote:Does this help explain why I think gatherers are the target audience for this feature?
Yes, but I still disagree with you.
reduce weights please please please - Eighty Swords - 03-19-2009
Jiraiya Wrote:Yeah, a blacksmith doesnt need igs to make armor or anything. And being GM carp obviously removes the logs requirement from crafting furniture
My point that you keep missing is they most likely don't need to carry as much at a time. Are you gonna mass make 100 chairs to sell at a time in the vendor mall or are you going to make maybe 10? That's a lot less resources in comparison to someone making hundreds of daggers to train a skill or someone gathering thousands of ingots so they can train their skills.
Jiraiya Wrote:Yes those plenty of ways to make cash are by SELLING THEIR CRAFTABLE ITEMS. Ya know, the reason they go through the hellishly long skillgain process to GM the skill to begin with. You act like a crafter just snaps his fingers and magically he has gm in a skill and can instantly make zillions. The fact is, a tailor can sell 2 things right now if he's gm. First, colored cloth of whatever tub he picked at gm, second, carpets. Thats it.
The point I'm trying to convey is now that they went through this process they have the means to make money and don't need another.
Jiraiya Wrote:The profits you gain from that provided you can even sell anything at all is the smallest fraction of what you dump into the skill to gm it. And every resource gatherer is a crafter as well.
Well it's not my fault someone chose a poor skill to spend their time GMing. Maybe they should have gone for BS or carpentry, or even both. That would let them make all the armor sets, the special weapons, forges, anvils, pentagrams, and other items that will sell for decent or even good profits.
Jiraiya Wrote:We're just going round in circles here mate. So I'll give you a different example. Say this item cost 25k to craft, you can sell for 30k. Thats a 5k profit obviously. Now say theres an active playerbase of 25 people. You will never be able to sell it to every one of those people, maybe 5 at most would buy (theres lots of crafters, people would just make it themselves etc.) So you make 25k profit over the course of say a week as people shop and eventually buy one. I can make 25k hunting in less then 20 minutes. As can anyone with basic hunting skills. Crafters here have very very few ways to actually make any profit. If smiths were to sell armor based on the amount of ore/igs they had to use to gm smithing, a set of exceptional old copper armor would be like 60k. Crafters gain the skills here because they enjoy doing it and like having the functionality to do things themselves, not to make profit. If they wanted profit they'd keep all their gold instead of dumping into skills which you never seen a true return on.
I get that if my request is implemented as an item this item potentially won't make a huge profit. But as you said earlier, "every resource gatherer is a crafter", well that goes the other way too then where every crafter is a resource gatherer, meaning they probably wont have to go to the vendor mall and buy x amount of different ingredients costing them 25k, they will most likely go and get the resources themselves or they already have a stockpile of all kinds of different resources.
Jiraiya Wrote:Yes, but I still disagree with you.
Same
I think we both went through our opinions pretty thoroughly so it's up to the staff to decide how to add this.