The PvP testing area (live!) - Printable Version
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The PvP testing area (live!) - Loki - 04-17-2012
Scare crow Wrote:#1 - Mitigation has turned dueling into a Poison fest. The only scroll that you need to cast is poison over and over and the other person has to cure over and over. Healing should not be affected while poisoned so that players can at least heal through dumps if they choose not to cure right away.
Okay this is actually a good reply, but I do want to explain the logic behind what I am doing, I hope I don't sound too argumentative.
Players can still heal if they don't cure immediately, but they lose a little health. At the end of the day cure is faster and takes less mana than poison, so if this is causing a problem it's probably because people haven't adjusted or don't have the situational awareness yet. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I do feel it's worth letting it be tested properly. Also time spent casting poison could have been spent casting a lightning (16 damage) a person would have to heal with two GHs through poison (loss of 7hp per GH whilst poison = 14hp total) in order for that poison to have done even nearly as much "damage" as the lightning would have done. So OK I am hearing what you are saying, but I'm also presenting the maths, which kinda indicates if poison is causing problems to survival it's because the person in question has taken far too long to cure or has chosen not to. Now I say indicates, because I am not saying you're wrong, or you're right, I'm just saying there is sufficient logical reason to continue testing and let people get used to the mechanic.
I think we need a more complex system than just casting GH, FS and lightning and this is one of the ways we get it. We've been hemorrhaging players recently and it's because the existing PvP is too simple, boring to watch and slow paced. Can't fix those problems without actually adding some new dynamics in somewhere.
Quote:#2 - Wall of Stone?? LOL - Fizzle PVP much?! (Dispel Field goes hand-in-hand with this)
#3 - Don't need Cure scrolls if poison is fixed... spell does just fine.
Not much to say to these two since these spells were not changed in the new system.
Quote:#4 - Mana Vampire is also one of those skills that messes with the duel.. you can just steal all of someonmes mana right from the start and turn the duel into a boring bandaid fest.
Okay this is the kind of knee-jerk uninformed hysteria I don't like: Firstly, it is Mana Drain that is activated not Mana Vampire. But let's assume that's just a mistake; if you had tested thoroughly before leaping to wrong conclusions you would know it is not possible by any means to take more than 18 mana from a person with Mana Drain. Furthermore, the effect is temporary, the mana is returned after 12s and the spell can also be resisted.
If anything it is pointlessly weak and hardly anyone seems to think it is worth using, but I am waiting to see if tactics start to develop. Your assessment that it is going to lead to a bandaid fest and all mana will be stolen is so wrong I don't even know what else to say.
Quote:#5 - Those Cure Pots should be removed because it has to do with mitigation
Sorry, genuinely not sure exactly what you mean about this.
Quote:* I think the style is ok but there are several things that need to be looked at. We are not trying to turn 1 v 1 duels into weird 50 hour duels.. It's boring right now. I find myself pressing poison over and over and over and cure and poison and cure... I just don't have the pleasure I used to I guess. Maybe I'm just getting to old or just hate the direction it's going in. I haven't figured it out yet..
AND THE ICING TO THE CAKE...
To those PVPers that use Injection SCRIPTS to duel FOR THEM. They will disagree with this but Im addressing it.
#6 - Mini Heal (In Mani) IS RETARDED! You can Mini heal out of a FULL DUMP (Very easy to create a macro that does it for you) and then have more mana than the other... VERY VERY unbalanced.
Heal (In Mani): 4 mana, 13hp, 800ms cast at 0 ping (unrealistic, but whatever).
Greater Heal (In Vas Mani): 11 mana, 36hp, 2100ms cast at 0 ping.
3x Heal: 12 mana, 39hp, 2400ms at 0 ping. Realistically 2400ms + 2x your ping.
So let's compare: Heal is lower HPM (36/11 > 39/12) and for the additional 300ms + 2x ping you get only 3 extra hp, even at 0 ping the HPS is worse (36/2100 > 39/2400).
So conclusion: GH is superior in both mana efficiency and time efficiency than Heal. The only advantage of Heal is situational (e.g. fast smaller amount of health to survive an incoming FS, or to heal between poisons, or to top up when the amount of health desired is less than 36). I'm actually very pleased with the balance of GH and Heal right now; they are both useful and very comparable, GH can give you an edge if used at the right times, whilst Heal can save you if used when GH will not get off in time or will be mitigated by a fast poison. In otherwords it is a judgement call, something which is good for PvP. Being able to mindlessly crush the GH key knowing it is the best in all situations is not skillful or thoughtful.
The PvP testing area (live!) - Habibi Jones - 04-17-2012
Loki Wrote:Okay this is actually a good reply, but I do want to explain the logic behind what I am doing, I hope I don't sound too argumentative.
Players can still heal if they don't cure immediately, but they lose a little health. At the end of the day cure is faster and takes less mana than poison, so if this is causing a problem it's probably because people haven't adjusted or don't have the situational awareness yet. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I do feel it's worth letting it be tested properly. Also time spent casting poison could have been spent casting a lightning (16 damage) a person would have to heal with two GHs through poison (loss of 7hp per GH whilst poison = 14hp total) in order for that poison to have done even nearly as much "damage" as the lightning would have done. So OK I am hearing what you are saying, but I'm also presenting the maths, which kinda indicates if poison is causing problems to survival it's because the person in question has taken far too long to cure or has chosen not to. Now I say indicates, because I am not saying you're wrong, or you're right, I'm just saying there is sufficient logical reason to continue testing and let people get used to the mechanic.
I think we need a more complex system than just casting GH, FS and lightning and this is one of the ways we get it. We've been hemorrhaging players recently and it's because the existing PvP is too simple, boring to watch and slow paced. Can't fix those problems without actually adding some new dynamics in somewhere.
Not much to say to these two since these spells were not changed in the new system.
Okay this is the kind of knee-jerk uninformed hysteria I don't like: Firstly, it is Mana Drain that is activated not Mana Vampire. But let's assume that's just a mistake; if you had tested thoroughly before leaping to wrong conclusions you would know it is not possible by any means to take more than 18 mana from a person with Mana Drain. Furthermore, the effect is temporary, the mana is returned after 12s and the spell can also be resisted.
If anything it is pointlessly weak and hardly anyone seems to think it is worth using, but I am waiting to see if tactics start to develop. Your assessment that it is going to lead to a bandaid fest and all mana will be stolen is so wrong I don't even know what else to say.
Sorry, genuinely not sure exactly what you mean about this.
Heal (In Mani): 4 mana, 13hp, 800ms cast at 0 ping (unrealistic, but whatever).
Greater Heal (In Vas Mani): 11 mana, 36hp, 2100ms cast at 0 ping.
3x Heal: 12 mana, 39hp, 2400ms at 0 ping. Realistically 2400ms + 2x your ping.
So let's compare: Heal is lower HPM (36/11 > 39/12) and for the additional 300ms + 2x ping you get only 3 extra hp, even at 0 ping the HPS is worse (36/2100 > 39/2400).
So conclusion: GH is superior in both mana efficiency and time efficiency than Heal. The only advantage of Heal is situational (e.g. fast smaller amount of health to survive an incoming FS, or to heal between poisons, or to top up when the amount of health desired is less than 36). I'm actually very pleased with the balance of GH and Heal right now; they are both useful and very comparable, GH can give you an edge if used at the right times, whilst Heal can save you if used when GH will not get off in time or will be mitigated by a fast poison. In otherwords it is a judgement call, something which is good for PvP. Being able to mindlessly crush the GH key knowing it is the best in all situations is not skillful or thoughtful.
The new system is good, all it takes is a bit of time to get used to it and a few new macros. It seems well balanced to me, there is no "cheesy" tactic that you can't counter/heal out of. Also, the mana drain thing is awesome, if you use it at the right time it's a great way to take people down.
No disrespect Scare and Smoke, but you should play it more because your complaints and how you were fighting earlier point to the fact that you are unfamiliar with it. It is a balanced system, but whether or not you guys like it is a different story, clearly you don't. I'm not going to say it's perfect, but it is a hell of a lot more fun than the live PvP.
In my opinion, the new style is much more fast paced and much more skill oriented considering the VAST increase in the number of effective spells. Duels and 2v2 are much more fun, but I can't really speak about a 5v5 scenario. That's something we really have to test.
The PvP testing area (live!) - Loki - 04-17-2012
sm0ke Wrote:Ah well i'll re-list it then what I don't like but we did speak about it earlier that's why i didn't feel the need to re-write it considering we had already spoken.
True, but this is not just for my benefit, the feedback is for everyone and the final decisions will be made by Taran, not me.
Quote:Poison system and poison before gh you can't really recover from a good dump.. and if you do hits will make this even harder to survive.
See reply to Scare.
Quote:Mindblast too cast before gh cast if timed properly with poison = you are dead not to mention this does a lot of damage for the cast time it's a little slower than lighting but faster than harm and does 25-30 dmg if i'm not mistaken..
Correct. However, the DPS for Mind Blast is lower than FS, as is the DPM. It does, however, have situational advantages. That's the idea behind most the changes, each spell has a purpose, learn the purpose and judge when to use it best and you'll benefit the most. If you try to nuke with Mind Blast though and you'll find it's not as time or mana efficient as FS scrolls, so poor use is self-penalising.
Quote:mana intake on offensive spells, it doesn't make sense how you can fs 3 times and light once or twice and be completely out of mana or close too it while the other person heals one or twice and still has 60 mana or so
I've actually only knocked FS mana up to 26 and lightning has not changed. Most people told me their mana lasts pretty well. I'm not sure what to say about this one, except that obviously in a regen system pacing your casting is key, the ability to "burst mana" is reduced as you have on demand 9 less mana from the total mana potion. However, over a long time frame you will have more mana and spells cost the same (except FS scroll at 26) so mana management should not be significantly harder, only a little different.
On global: total refresh: 36mana/27secs
On testing area: total refresh: 27mana/27secs + Regen: 27mana/27secs is 54mana total. If anything this may be OP but I believe it is balanced by the increased need to drink greater cure or heal potions (sad that the changes to them are currently broken so it is harder to test).
Quote:removing lighting scrolls from event gear, and making regs and scrolls identical yes i believe it shouldn't be the exact same defeats the whole purpose of that spell in the scroll if they're identical..
Yes, see reply above. I want to reduce the number of scrolls needed to PvP. I'd happily remove almost all of them but I am sure Taran would not allow that. If people could gear up and PvP faster, cheaper and with less pain I'm sure we'd see greater participation from those who are currently disinclined to take part. Also, PvP will get more expensive now because you will need AR otherwise Explosion, FS and Fireball will destroy you. This means savings must be made elsewhere because PvP must not become too expensive. I think most people would like to see more armour and weapon use rather than just crazy expensive and mass amounts of supplies?
Quote:I don't like that you will be able to cast walls or paralyze fields either on your enemy, I think it's pretty straight forward your not allowed to paralyze someone with your weapon over and over because the ref will eventually kill them yet this is allowed?
Sorry, I do not understand. Neither of these spells is different in the testing area. You realise I am not changing the dueling gear? The testing area is to simulate world PvP. In fact I reduced wall of stone duration so if anything such behaviour will now be more difficult.
Quote:harm is in fact overpower by damage means for a level 1 spell.. everyone i've come across has agreed with this pretty much as well
mini heal is retarded overpowered..
Harm: 21dmg, 11mana, 2.1s cast. DPS is 10damage/s
Flame Strike scroll: 42-47dmg, 26mana, 2.1s cast. DPS is 20+damage/s
21 may seem a big number, but Harm is a weak spell. But like all the adjusted spells, it has a purpose, it just isn't good for nuking.
Quote:there's probably more just forgot about what we talked about earlier was like 5 hours ago, but i don't think removing one scroll from the equation will make people feel any differently considering the main spell used is still fs and there are still 5-6 maybe more now scrolls that you will use in this pvp..
EDIT: In all honestly, i don't even really like the regen system i find potions to be more accurate.. if anything this will just make the dueling system more weird and have skills like magery and inscription more easily trained..
I'd like to stick to PvP concerns only, training, hunting, skill gains and economics can be adjusted after. To anyone reading who is worried about this, I am extremely determined not to let PvP changes ruin any other aspect of the game and I assure you if these changes go global great care will be taken to make sure other aspects of the game remain the same or are also improved.
As for the scrolls thing, see above, would happily remove more if I was allowed. I think it is good to have all the attack spells used though and to each have a true purpose, and it makes PvP look more varied than if only the lightning, FS and GH power words are ever seen.
The PvP testing area (live!) - Overdose - 04-17-2012
What I liked about INX style is that we had potion timers the same. Because you had to stay aware , once you drunk it you wont be able to drink another for 19 seconds and opponent knows it, so he most likely dump you on the following hit. Especially if he thinks you have less mana than he does. Right now having after-drink delays so different but animation\sound being the same just practically killed it..
I think is that GH scroll should intake more mana. To my preference should be only a savior. Thats also what I liked more on INX. There the penalty for being slow was much greater, as GH scroll could not be spammed. You were using only when you're going to die otherwise. It used to intake 29 mana and cover 32hp. And now people can cast it 8(!) times thats too crazy... I like having a 1-second healing spell but I want to make it so you'd have to mix them with regular in order to not waste mana... Shouldn't be like you said - mindless GH spamming. I think it should heal at least 3-4 hit points less than regular GH does and be somewhat around FS by mana intake. Poisoning would help it but it intakes time to cast, plus I myself don't like to have to poison the target.
Also, I still think poisoning from weapon shouldn't be as good as the spell that you cast. Because it's random and it's passive, not a dynamic you have to do yourself.
By the way, anyone has any idea how poison from weapon works currently? I mean what are chance to poison target if weapon was just poisoned with poisonining skill 100?
We seen FS damage increment, which is good but imho the flaw that we had was also that the fastest nuke spell (Light) was just 16 damage for so much mana. I myself would like to see this one uped to 18-19 and harm be another 1 sec nuke with ~ 8-10 damage instead, but twice lower mana intake. It was indeed useful spell already, and would make more sense to have a first circle spell like that, rather than 21damage 2.1 second ;o
That is all fow now, I liked the system overall.
The PvP testing area (live!) - Gang - 04-17-2012
Me be evil uncuttable hack-double hit bug-autofight script abuser :<
The PvP testing area (live!) - sm0ke - 04-17-2012
Gang Wrote:Me be evil uncuttable hack-double hit bug-autofight script abuser :<
well are you denying you don't use custom scripts to pvp here? or even on in-x or XUO
i'll reply to you loki soon, it's kinda of a long post.. and i wanna post something else before this
The PvP testing area (live!) - Gang - 04-17-2012
What scripts man?
) Poison that you use? my most complicated script is poison or explosion drop, oh also explosion throw , that will wait 2 seconds before. I have no script to count my mana or even yours mana, to count potion delay or to watch for hp of anyone of us. What scripts you have in mind? Many people here also have both manas set on one button, it would drink one of them dependant on your mana. I made macro like that for Vandyke and I have it, but I still don't use it. Automatic stuff is not viable in our PvP. Man I thought you out of everyone would know it. I do everything manually, as I already said - most complicated stuff is that it will poison weapon that I have on hands on one button. I do everything manually, I still have to react and time spells myself, I just made it comfortable to do so. You use all the 1v1 scripts I use, so please...
The PvP testing area (live!) - sm0ke - 04-17-2012
Gang Wrote:What scripts man?
I do everything manually, as I already said - most complicated stuff is that it will poison weapon that I have on hands on one button. I do everything manually, I still have to react and time spells myself, I just made it comfortable to do so. You use all the 1v1 scripts I use, so please...
that's not what i hear
The PvP testing area (live!) - sm0ke - 04-17-2012
Loki Wrote:True, but this is not just for my benefit, the feedback is for everyone and the final decisions will be made by Taran, not me.
See reply to Scare.
Correct. However, the DPS for Mind Blast is lower than FS, as is the DPM. It does, however, have situational advantages. That's the idea behind most the changes, each spell has a purpose, learn the purpose and judge when to use it best and you'll benefit the most. If you try to nuke with Mind Blast though and you'll find it's not as time or mana efficient as FS scrolls, so poor use is self-penalising.
I've actually only knocked FS mana up to 26 and lightning has not changed. Most people told me their mana lasts pretty well. I'm not sure what to say about this one, except that obviously in a regen system pacing your casting is key, the ability to "burst mana" is reduced as you have on demand 9 less mana from the total mana potion. However, over a long time frame you will have more mana and spells cost the same (except FS scroll at 26) so mana management should not be significantly harder, only a little different.
On global: total refresh: 36mana/27secs
On testing area: total refresh: 27mana/27secs + Regen: 27mana/27secs is 54mana total. If anything this may be OP but I believe it is balanced by the increased need to drink greater cure or heal potions (sad that the changes to them are currently broken so it is harder to test).
Yes, see reply above. I want to reduce the number of scrolls needed to PvP. I'd happily remove almost all of them but I am sure Taran would not allow that. If people could gear up and PvP faster, cheaper and with less pain I'm sure we'd see greater participation from those who are currently disinclined to take part. Also, PvP will get more expensive now because you will need AR otherwise Explosion, FS and Fireball will destroy you. This means savings must be made elsewhere because PvP must not become too expensive. I think most people would like to see more armour and weapon use rather than just crazy expensive and mass amounts of supplies?
Sorry, I do not understand. Neither of these spells is different in the testing area. You realise I am not changing the dueling gear? The testing area is to simulate world PvP. In fact I reduced wall of stone duration so if anything such behaviour will now be more difficult.
Harm: 21dmg, 11mana, 2.1s cast. DPS is 10damage/s
Flame Strike scroll: 42-47dmg, 26mana, 2.1s cast. DPS is 20+damage/s
21 may seem a big number, but Harm is a weak spell. But like all the adjusted spells, it has a purpose, it just isn't good for nuking.
I'd like to stick to PvP concerns only, training, hunting, skill gains and economics can be adjusted after. To anyone reading who is worried about this, I am extremely determined not to let PvP changes ruin any other aspect of the game and I assure you if these changes go global great care will be taken to make sure other aspects of the game remain the same or are also improved.
As for the scrolls thing, see above, would happily remove more if I was allowed. I think it is good to have all the attack spells used though and to each have a true purpose, and it makes PvP look more varied than if only the lightning, FS and GH power words are ever seen.
This is a big post so i'm just gonna post my thought's on what should be changed instead of redesigning the PvP imo.
Honestly the pvp is quite fine as it is now, hits need to be tweaked a bit with armor like i've said FOREVER ago, we don't really need a redesign in the PvP we just need some spells to do much damage and some to heal more such as FS Light and Greater heal, I think aside from that nothing else needs to be changed. The more damage fs can do and be covered by GH will make people who are only 2-3 be able to gank vs bigger numbers because FS damage will be increased and they have a chance to double fs/nuke the player if they have proper timing and coordination.
The PvP testing area (live!) - Gang - 04-17-2012
You're being disinformed then ;p and you don't really think about it yourself as well... Because I thought for someone who PvP's as long as you it would be obvious
Almost impossible to include all the circumstances that might take a place in a duel , thus the program that makes decision instead of you would be obsolete, as players have much more adaptability(is there even word like that?) , and it's huge advantage. I mean it would take a duel or maximum two to figure do I use auto scripts or not lol... do my actions repeat in same order with same delays all the time LOL? XD just laughable , really ;p
Brain beats the machine man. Well... some brain don't, I guess
The PvP testing area (live!) - sm0ke - 04-17-2012
Gang Wrote:You're being disinformed then ;p and you don't really think about it yourself as well... Because I thought for someone who PvP's as long as you it would be obvious
Almost impossible to include all the circumstances that might take a place in a duel , thus the program that makes decision instead of you would be obsolete, as players have much more adaptability(is there even word like that?) , and it's huge advantage. I mean it would take a duel or maximum two to figure do I use auto scripts or not lol... do my actions repeat in same order with same delays all the time LOL? XD just laughable , really ;p
Brain beats the machine man. Well... some brain don't, I guess
I never said you used automated scripts like autohealing when below a certain part or auto dumping, I said you had custom scripts which you clearly do personally i don't care because i can still kill you just fine in the 1v1 area and you don't really gank. I just find it funny that you have some these created for your self
The PvP testing area (live!) - Gang - 04-17-2012
100% of my autoload is shared with all my guild and few other people, and I don't have anything that would give me advantage dude. If anything - I'm sure there are people that know injection much better than me, or even csharp+easyuo which is much more advanced, and allows you to do literally anything. As I already said, the most "advantage-giving" part is drop explosion potions by one, I still have to press the button tho, all it will do is drop 1 explosion potion on ground on tile where last target stands (if I can reach it) and another one that will cast arrow on explosion potion on the ground. Yeah it's much easier than dragging potion on ground by one and then aiming arrow, but well it's still don't do it automated because even simpliest attempt on automatization of this macro like - dropping 5 pots + casting arrow on ground - would force you to include a check on where your character stands so you don't blow yourself, if you think deeper you wouldn't also want to blow your allies, which can be any people, even out of party. And thats what is hard to explain to a script. It has no idea who your friends or how to determine them. My most advanced macro right now is AFK macroing\craft macros. Which can be easily automated . indeed.
If you think about it you'll realize theres no people that use a lot of automatic stuff... Or if you don't mean that I have macros that takes decisions instead of me ,then tell me how does my macro give me any advantage over people?