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Archery Changes - Printable Version

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Archery Changes - Siren - 03-27-2012

I have been meaning to point this out for a long time... so here goes:

As an IN1 vet, playing from VERY early on, one of the first things that I noticed is how nearly USELESS Archery is in pvp on this server. Here is how it was on IN1:

- Archery's first shot was instant.

- The swing time on Archery would go down while moving

- Archery did LOTS of damage to people not wearing armor/low AR


This is how Archery is now:

- Archery's first shot requires the swing timer to be reached before the first shot is taken

- After movement, the swing timer must be reached again once standing still to take another shot

- Archery does do more damage to naked/low AR folks, but it isnt even a blip on the radar when compared to the revised damage of Explosion and Energy Bolt


Here are the reasons why I think changes (back to the IN1 state) to Archery would help in pvp and the server in general:

- Archery could be the incentive for players to wear more armor due to the sheer amount of damage it would do to low AR/naked folks.

- Archery being used more often and being viable in PvP would make the market for bows, arrows, and the like to be more profitable.

- Archery being viable as a main source of damage in PvP would lead to different playstyles, including stat choices which currently arnt existent in PvP (you just want the most Mana and Health you can get)

- Archery being viable as a main source of damage could lead to new Role Play themes and guilds, perhaps some that dont allow the use of spells like FS,EB,Explo. I remember on IN1 there was an a guild (Elven... which I actually ran for a while) that could only use Archery for attacking, and magery was only allowed for utility purposes. We were quite successful simply because four players with Dexer stats and Vanq bows/Xbows/Hxbows could dominate single targets if they weren't wearing armor, and it was faster damage than FS spam on the first shot.

- Archery will actually be a skill that gets real use in the game.


Without something like the "Fiery Bow of Death" in the game (an insanely overpowered bow from IN1), I think these changes to Archery would be far from imbalanced. There are a few cons of course. Here are a few:

1: PvP may end up costing more due to needing arrows and a bow if you plan to use Archery in your PvP build.

2: Folks may start running around naked with Elven Bows instead of FS scrolls (as the vogue is right now).

3: It may lead to people getting mad if they instant die from 5-6 people focus firing Hxbow at a single target.


My counterpoints to those three are:

1: If you are using a build where Archery is viable, you would need max dex and str. This means you will need to spend far less money on regs, as you wont be using them as much. So the cost may even out.

2: If people are running around naked, they should most always get destroyed by high AR folks anyway, as it is now.

3: You already instantly die to 5-6 people FS scrolling you, so this is just a fact of life in UO that we have to accept. Further, there is a luck factor involved in Archery. All 6 of those Archers could very well miss, while its 100% certain that every FS will connect since spells do not have a chance to miss or fizzle when you cast from a scroll.


So that is my argument. I think these changes would be extremely healthy for the server. In fact, after a day or two of discussion in this thread, I would love to see a vote for implementation to take place. These changes would solve SO many problems people are having right now... Everything from the viability of armor and the dominance of magery, to the economics behind the Fletching skill and viability of the Archery skill in PvP.

Thanks for your time and I hope we get some good discussion, or even simply saying "This is a great idea" or "I dont like it, here is why" or some added ideas to what I posted. I simply want Archery to be on par to what is was on IN1. It was my favorite skill and play style (based on ambushing and positioning more than mana dumping and chasing).

Cheers,
Siren

Archery Changes - Raziel_ - 03-27-2012

I always loved archery!! I would really like to see archery being more usefull for pvp here!! i would surely love to pvp with bows ;D
But i dont know... i dont pvp... so i guess my opnion on how it would affect pvp doesnt count here but i would surely love to use bow as my main damage source =]

Archery Changes - Venos - 03-27-2012

Was the first shot really instant back then? I remember it being more like ½ the swing time between shots. But yes it was very fast and made switching to bow/xbow a viable alternative to scrolling.

Archery Changes - Mael - 03-27-2012

i like it...i def remeber from IN1 useing bows ALL the time..and now i never do

Archery Changes - Loki - 03-28-2012

I'd like to make archery better (IN1 nostalgia being just one of the reasons why) but I'd like to fix a lot of other things first. Also, I want to be careful because archery takes a lot less player input than magery or chasing with a weapon, so if it was overly powerful it would feel somewhat cheap.

Perhaps if archery improved more dramatically high dexterity than other skills (hence there is an inherent penalty to mana or hit points associated with superior archery) this would somehow work and also inject a little bit of style differentiation. Pretty much what you are saying, but significantly I wouldn't want to be buffing archery for people on 80 dex going with gank caster stats...

I'm just thinking out loud, and only speaking for myself, not the staff. I hope you can appreciate it is a higher priority to fix existing problems with spells etc. though, this doesn't mean I don't think archery is important or could be improved, just that it is less of a problem right now and also a bit tricky...

Also I'm not sure it will be the wonder bandaid for making people wear armour, since you can't shoot when running and you can heal when running sooo....

Archery Changes - Mael - 03-28-2012

well i think a good idea would be to do what siren says but put a certain distance that you can hit while running...obviously shorter than what the normal is...but it just seems like the bow fletcher is basically obsolete now

Archery Changes - Loki - 03-28-2012

I'm not so sure about that, being able to chase people and do damage whilst moving with no input other than footwork seems kinda imbalanced doesn't it?

Archery Changes - Mael - 03-28-2012

Loki Wrote:I'm not so sure about that, being able to chase people and do damage whilst moving with no input other than footwork seems kinda imbalanced doesn't it?
well maybe not while moving but if the swing count would hit right away you could plan ahead and stop in front of your target

Archery Changes - Xerxes - 03-28-2012

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Interesting, anybody heard of the glove of lord raistlin, made me think of those. Just my 2 cent.

-Xerxes[/COLOR]

Archery Changes - Ramza - 03-28-2012

Is there a way to make the swing speed of the bow slower while moving? Logically that makes a lot of sense because you would need more time to aim while moving (If you've played skyrim you will know it's harder to shoot while running!). Technically speaking I dont know how that would work. As the server's first GM fletcher *cough* I will obviously endorse anything that makes this skill more useful. I have always enjoyed archery hence why I chose it as my first crafting skill.

Siren: Have you tried shooting an elven bow at someone naked? It does a lot of damage right now actually, but the problem is that armor reduces it precipitously. Again, logically that makes a lot of sense. A wooden arrow isn't going to do anything to plate armor. Now I am getting the ideas. What about if archery did more damage against leather/naked players? Leather/naked would have to give some other kinds of bonuses, but that is out of the scope of this post.

Has anyone thought of making higher level arrows that do more damage than normal? Like wood arrows then iron arrows. Iron ones would take precedent when shooting (if you had both types in your pack for some reason) and would increase demand for iron (not sure this is a good thing...). Maybe allow other unused ore types like old copper or something usable? I dont know the mechanics behind that either. Although the prices are similar (you can buy arrows for what 11gp from the stone?), maybe you would want to make the arrows cost more to justify the damage increase. Perhaps a reagent involved too (batwing or something?) would be cool.

I'm just spit-balling here, but I do hope we see some changes for fletching/archery because it seems useless in PvP. I would like to try a bow/xbow in pvp but I feel like I would just get steamrolled in a tournament. Or perhaps the laughter would give me an advantage? Smile

Archery Changes - Loki - 03-28-2012

In a tiny box I think it will be very tough to make archery better than using a halberd or such. However, it would be good to make it useful in other situations.

I would, however, point out that arrows and bolts generally penetrate plate armour better than they do through hardened leather or chain.

Archery Changes - Siren - 03-28-2012

Let me make it clear... i did NOT mean that IN1 ever had moving while shooting. I just mean that while you moved, the swing timer would start to tick down. So when you stood still next, you would get another instant shot if you were running for a few seconds.
Therefore, you could chase people, then stop for a moment and shoot, then run after them again (though they will be faster than you because you had to stop and shoot).

I do NOT support running while shooting. To do damage while running, I think magery is needed. Archery should tick down the swing timer while running though.

And in all honesty, Loki, I really do think better archery would be a panacea to a lot of problems we have with AR and magery being overpowered. Why keep tweaking magery? It will not solve any problems. FS spam will still be the way to go. It doesnt matter what you do. Giving way to another viable playstyle would be far more effective in my honest opinion. Make having 120 dex worth while if you drink a greater agility pot (maybe lowering swing speed at that interval).

Anyone that played IN1, after thinking about it, would probably agree that a HUGE part of pvp was archery, and it is nonexistant here. I think if we fixed it, it would add the variety that is needed to make pvp seem more interesting and varied.

There were straight dex builds on IN1 that were effective, just as there were full on int builds that were effective. Right now... ONLY int builds are good. Dex has 100% no purpose unless you wana be a thief. That is NOT healthy for play styles at all. Further, I know for a fact it is a very simple fix to implement with minimal effort involved. Why not set up a zone where we can test the archery change?

We all agree it is an area of the game that needs attention. I think, however, that we differ on the priority of it. I say CHANGE it since its FAR easier to change than armor ratings and what ores to have and which to get rid of. I would try Archery changes long before removing ores from the game and see if it works. That is just my two cents.

I know for a fact that players hate it when aspects of the game they enjoy are removed. Try to fix Archery before trying to remove ores. See if it works. That is just my opinion. And lord knows im opinionated as hell. lol <3 the staff. Just my two cents.