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Thread: The PvP testing area (live!)

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  1. #1
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    The PvP testing area (live!)

    The moment is finally here. The PvP testing area is now ready. The testing area is set up in Luna, it is supplied with event gear and is open to everybody. There are a number of rules and points to bear in mind, these are written in the pink book next to the entrance, please read the book before you start playing around, it will help you avoid problems and/or jail

    All feedback is appreciated, I also expect any bugs that are discovered to be reported. Please keep all such replies in this thread, except for bug reports which you may PM to me. Do not PM me general feedback, I don't want to get 100 PMs, it will make my head hurt. Please bear in mind there is a known bug with the mana intakes of some of the spells, this is due to the fact that these PvP rules are being forced by a region and are not applied globally, so please do not report bugs with spell mana intakes. Anything else is much appreciated though.

    Bear in mind I respond best to feedback which is logical, well reasons and impartial. I do not respond well to feedback which is whining, self-interested or illogical/unjustified. I also not respond well to hysteria, overstatement or scaremongering. So, if you want your feedback to be taken seriously, bear these things in mind!

    Now a list of the changes being tested for you to scrutinise and experiment with in the test area:

    Code:
    - Poison can now only be applied to/from 1H bladed weapons. The 1H bladed weapons on the supplier come pre-poisoned with 50 charges.
    
    - Poison now mitigates healing done by Heal and Greater Heal somewhat.
    
    - Greater Heal and Heal both have a significantly higher base heal amount. Furthermore, Greater Heal scrolls intake slightly less mana. Heal scrolls now takes the full cast time and 4 mana so are no better than the book spell.
    
    - Lightning spell from book now casts the same as a scroll.
    
    - Harm spell (both from book and scroll) casts in similar fashion to the old book-spell version of Lightning.
    
    - Mind Blast (both book and scroll) do a lot more damage, cast slower, intakes more mana and also does additional damage and mana drain vs. certain stats (but this is a small factor).
    
    - Mana regeneration now works passively.
    
    - Mana potions only give about 75% of their previous values, but the potion delays are the same.
    
    - Potion delays are lowered for Cure, Refresh and Heal potions.
    
    - Flame Strike does more damage, including bonus on low AR. The scrolls also do the same but the mana intake has been increased.
    
    - Mana Drain now works in PvP, it can only be applied once per 12s and trying to apply it more will do nothing and waste your mana. After 12s the effect dissipates and must be reapplied.
    
    - Explosion now has a much higher base damage but damage decays more rapidly with increasing AR.
    
    - Fireball now does significant additional damage on low AR. The scroll matches the spell in all respects. You will be able to test this by removing armour in the test area if you wish.
    
    - High dexterity now improves the success chance, minimum heal and maximum heal of bandages.
    
    - High dexterity (above 100) now increases weapon swing rate.
    Other changes which were applied at the last patch and are in fact global already (but which I'm mentioning to avoid confusion):
    Code:
    - Fixed and reduced the duration of Wall of Stone and Paralyze.
    
    - Fixed and reduced stamina drain on macing weapons.
    Things which are not on the live server but will probably be included in global changes if these changes are accepted:
    Code:
    - Increased damage (particularly minimum damage rather than maximum) for Axe and Spear weapons.
    
    - Reduced material requirements for Mana potions.
    
    - Recall scrolls will cast a little slower.
    
    - Some high power 1H bladed custom weapons will also not be poisonable.
    
    - Changes to some PvM (summoning) spells or scrolls to account for the mana regeneration rates.
    Things which are on my radar but will not be fixed in this patch:
    Code:
    - Archery changes.
    
    - Weapon hits/hit limiters and other things of that nature.
    Additional information can be found in the old thread: http://in-uo.net/forums/showthread.p...nd-PvP-testing

    However, if information in each thread is contradictory then this thread is the one with the more up-to-date information.

    So, in closing. The testing area is ready and will be opened shortly, it can be accessed by a pink moongate inside the Casino. If you cannot find it it means the gate is closed for now, it will be on the highest level near the models. I have not decided how long I will leave the gate open, I would like to get as much testing as possible done during this week though, preferably without sabotaging the rest of the server PvP and so on though. However, I should hope most PvPers would be interested in seeing what may be coming. Also, for those who are less inclined to PvP, take the chance to get some free practice and see what you think.

    Cheers,
    Loki

  2. #2
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    Quick note: If you have any problem with your equipment (separate event items causing bugs etc.) then use the blue portal in the test area to reset your equipment.

    If you want to leave you need to die, use the blue portal and then the red portal. If for some reason you are unable to be killed or kill yourself use the "suicide portal" (grey).

  3. #3
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    Another note: I see most the testers fighting in the same style as without the changes.

    This is fine, and I designed the system for this to work. But it would be good if people tried out the new options and spells also, you may find something you like, also they need testing for balance.

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    Reported bug: Flame Strike ignores Magic Reflect.

    I have found the cause but cannot fix until next restart. So if the changes go global it will be fixed, if not it will be irrelevant.

    Reported bug: Fireball intakes no mana (intended to take 9).

    This was a mistake by me, again fixed if we go global, irrelevant if we don't.

    So, no need to report these bugs again, try not to abuse them to the detriment of other testing!

  5. #5
    I've been in there a bit, and I would like to say thank you for working so hard on this. These sort of changes take a lot of thought and time to get right, and I appreciate it. However, be ready for the negativity that is always associated with change, as I'm sure you are well aware of.

    I do have a question though. How exactly does Chain Lightning work? It seems that it get's weaker with the more people that are hit by it. For example, if it hits one person it does 60+ damage (I'm not in-game so the numbers are just fabricated), but if it hits 3 people it does 20+ damage. So is the entire spell damage dispersed between all those that are hit by it? Is this intended? It seems that CL to a single target did some massive damage.

    Also, FS is nuts. It might just take some getting used to, but it definitely hits like a train. Regular FS is slow, but it packs a serious enough punch to make it viable.

    The passive mana seems to do well. Although its hard to be sure when people are going to have enough mana for that final FS dump. For those of us that have dueled enough, you can almost tell when someone can or cannot FS you. This mana regen is making that assessment tough.

    I like the poison changes. Makes the skill actually useful, and is a serious aid when trying to take someone out.

    I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the lightning and harm changes. Harm seems over powered, but I wanted to start up a discussion here. I'm sure there is a good reason for those changes, and I would like to hear what that is.

    Also, a few request for the test area:

    Can we get some poison pots added to our equipment? (If they are already there, I must be blind and I am sorry)

    Could something be added that would allow us to edit our stats while in the test area? It would be nice to be able to test what str/dex/int combo works best. Since some of these changes are dex based, I think this would be a nice option.

    *Edit - Most of my testing was 1v1 with a few other people. I did little to no group testing, so I cannot chime in there.*
    Last edited by Grendel_IN; 04-16-2012 at 09:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel_IN View Post
    I've been in there a bit, and I would like to say thank you for working so hard on this. These sort of changes take a lot of thought and time to get right, and I appreciate it. However, be ready for the negativity that is always associated with change, as I'm sure you are well aware of.

    I do have a question though. How exactly does Chain Lightning work? It seems that it get's weaker with the more people that are hit by it. For example, if it hits one person it does 60+ damage (I'm not in-game so the numbers are just fabricated), but if it hits 3 people it does 20+ damage. So is the entire spell damage dispersed between all those that are hit by it? Is this intended? It seems that CL to a single target did some massive damage.
    CL is actually not changed, so it works exactly how it works already. It does 47(ish) damage on a single target, and reduces as it hits more targets, it can also hit the caster. The same applies to Meteor Strike as well. But as I said, this is not new, this is how it has always worked here. Happy to change it if someone has a better idea, I really ignored these spells.

    Also, FS is nuts. It might just take some getting used to, but it definitely hits like a train. Regular FS is slow, but it packs a serious enough punch to make it viable.

    The passive mana seems to do well. Although its hard to be sure when people are going to have enough mana for that final FS dump. For those of us that have dueled enough, you can almost tell when someone can or cannot FS you. This mana regen is making that assessment tough.
    Yes FS does hit hard, but it's the cornerstone of making PvP a bit pacier. You'll find various ways to heal have been improved also though, so there is a more rapid to-and-fro of health in PvP.

    As for the mana thing, definitely it's a complicating factor but that judgement you speak of comes with experience. I hope experience in the new system would also give players similar insight.

    I like the poison changes. Makes the skill actually useful, and is a serious aid when trying to take someone out.

    I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the lightning and harm changes. Harm seems over powered, but I wanted to start up a discussion here. I'm sure there is a good reason for those changes, and I would like to hear what that is.
    Harm is in fact the old "book" lightning now, with a slight damage increase. It hits for 21 which may seem a lot but it actually takes 2.1s to cast. This means in the time you could throw an FS scroll you actually did less than half of the damage. So as you can see despite seeming powerful it's actually quite a poor nuke. But it is cheap (11 mana) so it is decent for a bit of damage when mana is low or when you want to apply pressure without going into a mana-costly nuke. I tried to make it so all spells have a unique purpose, each spell has some advantage that other spells do not and no one spell is the best of everything.

    Also, a few request for the test area:

    Can we get some poison pots added to our equipment? (If they are already there, I must be blind and I am sorry)
    Working on this right now! Just have to find a way around the fact that it spawns lots of empty bottles... expect this fixed soon and poison pots included.

    Could something be added that would allow us to edit our stats while in the test area? It would be nice to be able to test what str/dex/int combo works best. Since some of these changes are dex based, I think this would be a nice option.

    *Edit - Most of my testing was 1v1 with a few other people. I did little to no group testing, so I cannot chime in there.*
    Can't really provide such a feature for stats without adding a script, which needs a server restart (not until Sunday). If you are testing when I am present and not AFKing as I have been mostly doing then I would be willing to .set your stats and .set them back afterwards. No permanent .set though because that would be a bit cheaty

  7. #7
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    just to put this on the forums the potion times are not right.....loki said cure pots are 5s heals are 10s but it seems that they are all the same as current pvp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mael View Post
    just to put this on the forums the potion times are not right.....loki said cure pots are 5s heals are 10s but it seems that they are all the same as current pvp
    Correct, unfortunately the region check script must not be working for these. It seemed OK on my test server so I don't know why this is.

    So I guess just bear in mind the changes were designed for these potion delays, sadly they're not in and can't be fixed without a restart.

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    well you know my thoughts on the pvp, it clearly hasn't been tested enough and isn't balanced enough either. Many people i spoke with thought it was a joke i my self will probably stop playing if this gets implanted just because i don't like how things are looking or the direction there going into. Just saying that not expecting for you to change it on the account of me but i'm sure a lot of players who came from xuo or in-x will also do the same.

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    It would be better if people could stay objective and state problems like so:

    I think that (thing) is too (strong/weak) because (too little mana/too much damage/too little damage/too inefficient).

    Or:

    I dislike (new feature) because it (breaks something/makes things too fast/too slow).

    Things like that are way easier for me to make notes of, or respond to. Believe it or not I do actually write down the feedback when I can understand it in order to address and make changes later if needed. Just because I don't immediately say "Ok, I will do everything you want" doesn't mean you were ignored, and I hate to promise/deny anything until I have had a sufficient amount of observing time and feedback.

    I'm a very empirical and logical person, I like to measure and watch and calculate. I respect objectivity and strongly believe the best way to balance the system is through innovative changes which are mathematically balanced. I really can't do anything with feedback which is "I don't like it" or "This is broken" with no other information.

    Specifically the complaints I remember from you smoke are:

    1) Don't like reduction of scroll dependence/removal of lightning scrolls.

    2) Think poison makes nuking too easy to kill/hard to live.

    Is this correct? Is there more? Does anyone else have any comments on these issues?

    My person feeling is that I haven't had enough feedback or chance to see the poison mechanic working out. Also I am willing to revert the lightning scroll change but the way I see it in order to PvP to your full potential you will need:

    All kinds pots
    Armour/Weapons/Shield
    Bless, Curse, FS, GH, MR, Wall, Dispel Field, Explo, EB, Poison and Cure scrolls

    If anything I'd prefer to reduce this scroll burden more rather than reverting the small amount it has already been reduced...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It would be better if people could stay objective and state problems like so:

    I think that (thing) is too (strong/weak) because (too little mana/too much damage/too little damage/too inefficient).

    Or:

    I dislike (new feature) because it (breaks something/makes things too fast/too slow).

    Things like that are way easier for me to make notes of, or respond to. Believe it or not I do actually write down the feedback when I can understand it in order to address and make changes later if needed. Just because I don't immediately say "Ok, I will do everything you want" doesn't mean you were ignored, and I hate to promise/deny anything until I have had a sufficient amount of observing time and feedback.

    I'm a very empirical and logical person, I like to measure and watch and calculate. I respect objectivity and strongly believe the best way to balance the system is through innovative changes which are mathematically balanced. I really can't do anything with feedback which is "I don't like it" or "This is broken" with no other information.

    Specifically the complaints I remember from you smoke are:

    1) Don't like reduction of scroll dependence/removal of lightning scrolls.

    2) Think poison makes nuking too easy to kill/hard to live.

    Is this correct? Is there more? Does anyone else have any comments on these issues?

    My person feeling is that I haven't had enough feedback or chance to see the poison mechanic working out. Also I am willing to revert the lightning scroll change but the way I see it in order to PvP to your full potential you will need:

    All kinds pots
    Armour/Weapons/Shield
    Bless, Curse, FS, GH, MR, Wall, Dispel Field, Explo, EB, Poison and Cure scrolls

    If anything I'd prefer to reduce this scroll burden more rather than reverting the small amount it has already been reduced...
    #1 - Mitigation has turned dueling into a Poison fest. The only scroll that you need to cast is poison over and over and the other person has to cure over and over. Healing should not be affected while poisoned so that players can at least heal through dumps if they choose not to cure right away.

    #2 - Wall of Stone?? LOL - Fizzle PVP much?! (Dispel Field goes hand-in-hand with this)

    #3 - Don't need Cure scrolls if poison is fixed... spell does just fine.

    #4 - Mana Vampire is also one of those skills that messes with the duel.. you can just steal all of someonmes mana right from the start and turn the duel into a boring bandaid fest.

    #5 - Those Cure Pots should be removed because it has to do with mitigation

    * I think the style is ok but there are several things that need to be looked at. We are not trying to turn 1 v 1 duels into weird 50 hour duels.. It's boring right now. I find myself pressing poison over and over and over and cure and poison and cure... I just don't have the pleasure I used to I guess. Maybe I'm just getting to old or just hate the direction it's going in. I haven't figured it out yet..

    AND THE ICING TO THE CAKE...

    To those PVPers that use Injection SCRIPTS to duel FOR THEM. They will disagree with this but Im addressing it.

    #6 - Mini Heal (In Mani) IS RETARDED! You can Mini heal out of a FULL DUMP (Very easy to create a macro that does it for you) and then have more mana than the other... VERY VERY unbalanced.
    Last edited by Scare crow; 04-17-2012 at 03:05 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scare crow View Post
    #1 - Mitigation has turned dueling into a Poison fest. The only scroll that you need to cast is poison over and over and the other person has to cure over and over. Healing should not be affected while poisoned so that players can at least heal through dumps if they choose not to cure right away.
    Okay this is actually a good reply, but I do want to explain the logic behind what I am doing, I hope I don't sound too argumentative.

    Players can still heal if they don't cure immediately, but they lose a little health. At the end of the day cure is faster and takes less mana than poison, so if this is causing a problem it's probably because people haven't adjusted or don't have the situational awareness yet. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I do feel it's worth letting it be tested properly. Also time spent casting poison could have been spent casting a lightning (16 damage) a person would have to heal with two GHs through poison (loss of 7hp per GH whilst poison = 14hp total) in order for that poison to have done even nearly as much "damage" as the lightning would have done. So OK I am hearing what you are saying, but I'm also presenting the maths, which kinda indicates if poison is causing problems to survival it's because the person in question has taken far too long to cure or has chosen not to. Now I say indicates, because I am not saying you're wrong, or you're right, I'm just saying there is sufficient logical reason to continue testing and let people get used to the mechanic.

    I think we need a more complex system than just casting GH, FS and lightning and this is one of the ways we get it. We've been hemorrhaging players recently and it's because the existing PvP is too simple, boring to watch and slow paced. Can't fix those problems without actually adding some new dynamics in somewhere.

    #2 - Wall of Stone?? LOL - Fizzle PVP much?! (Dispel Field goes hand-in-hand with this)

    #3 - Don't need Cure scrolls if poison is fixed... spell does just fine.
    Not much to say to these two since these spells were not changed in the new system.

    #4 - Mana Vampire is also one of those skills that messes with the duel.. you can just steal all of someonmes mana right from the start and turn the duel into a boring bandaid fest.
    Okay this is the kind of knee-jerk uninformed hysteria I don't like: Firstly, it is Mana Drain that is activated not Mana Vampire. But let's assume that's just a mistake; if you had tested thoroughly before leaping to wrong conclusions you would know it is not possible by any means to take more than 18 mana from a person with Mana Drain. Furthermore, the effect is temporary, the mana is returned after 12s and the spell can also be resisted.

    If anything it is pointlessly weak and hardly anyone seems to think it is worth using, but I am waiting to see if tactics start to develop. Your assessment that it is going to lead to a bandaid fest and all mana will be stolen is so wrong I don't even know what else to say.

    #5 - Those Cure Pots should be removed because it has to do with mitigation
    Sorry, genuinely not sure exactly what you mean about this.

    * I think the style is ok but there are several things that need to be looked at. We are not trying to turn 1 v 1 duels into weird 50 hour duels.. It's boring right now. I find myself pressing poison over and over and over and cure and poison and cure... I just don't have the pleasure I used to I guess. Maybe I'm just getting to old or just hate the direction it's going in. I haven't figured it out yet..

    AND THE ICING TO THE CAKE...

    To those PVPers that use Injection SCRIPTS to duel FOR THEM. They will disagree with this but Im addressing it.

    #6 - Mini Heal (In Mani) IS RETARDED! You can Mini heal out of a FULL DUMP (Very easy to create a macro that does it for you) and then have more mana than the other... VERY VERY unbalanced.
    Heal (In Mani): 4 mana, 13hp, 800ms cast at 0 ping (unrealistic, but whatever).

    Greater Heal (In Vas Mani): 11 mana, 36hp, 2100ms cast at 0 ping.

    3x Heal: 12 mana, 39hp, 2400ms at 0 ping. Realistically 2400ms + 2x your ping.

    So let's compare: Heal is lower HPM (36/11 > 39/12) and for the additional 300ms + 2x ping you get only 3 extra hp, even at 0 ping the HPS is worse (36/2100 > 39/2400).

    So conclusion: GH is superior in both mana efficiency and time efficiency than Heal. The only advantage of Heal is situational (e.g. fast smaller amount of health to survive an incoming FS, or to heal between poisons, or to top up when the amount of health desired is less than 36). I'm actually very pleased with the balance of GH and Heal right now; they are both useful and very comparable, GH can give you an edge if used at the right times, whilst Heal can save you if used when GH will not get off in time or will be mitigated by a fast poison. In otherwords it is a judgement call, something which is good for PvP. Being able to mindlessly crush the GH key knowing it is the best in all situations is not skillful or thoughtful.

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